Dream Talk Session (08/2013)
Naokatsu Tsuda (July 2015)
An interview with Hirohiko Araki and Yūsei Matsui, the manga artist of Assassination Classroom and Neuro: Supernatural Detective.
Interview
JoJo’s Bizarre Adventure X Assassination Classroom Hirohiko Araki & Yusei Matsui
Dream talk session
A chance meeting between Yusei Matsui, author of the popular Weekly Jump manga "Assassination Classroom", and Hirohiko Araki, who has built a unique world within his "JoJo's Bizarre Adventure". During this relaxed discussion, they raise the curtain on their work methods.
Even though I look like this, I'm an outdoors type of guy (laughs). -Araki
Thank you for coming today! Matsui-sensei ate Araki-sensei's cod roe spaghetti and chicken soup. Can you give us an impression?
Matsui: Really, I'm overwhelmed by being able to eat the food an artist I look up to made. The chicken soup had a really gentle flavour and I felt it was very invigorating. The spaghetti was good too!
Araki-sensei, you said you like to cook as a divergence from your work. Are making food and making manga similar in any way?
Araki: Well, not really (laughs). However, I make both manga and food in gratitude of many things, so I guess they spring from the same source.
You just ate together. Do you do anything special to keep up your health, and what are your favorite foods?
Matsui: I just eat stuff I buy at the convenience store. I take nutritional supplements and go out to eat some proper food every now and then, so I really don’t fuss over my health much yet.
Araki: I don’t eat anything after 6pm. I eat whatever I like in the morning and afternoon, but I don’t eat anything in the evening. If you eat while working in the evenings, you’ll definitely get fat. If you get fat, you won’t want to move and you’ll fall into a downwards spiral, so I’m careful about my health.
Matsui: You’re still very slim. Do you exercise regularly?
Araki: I do.
Matsui: When did you start?
Araki: I think that when people hit their 40s, they’ll want to take up running because they’re tense about their health. I used to like diving and mountaineering, so from there I started running. I actually like exercising. Even though I look like this, I’m an outdoors type of guy (laughs).
Matsui: I didn’t mind exercise before I started Assassination Classroom, but as soon as the serialisation started, my will to exercise disappeared. Moreover, I feel like muscles get in the way when I’m just sitting and letting my mind work at full force, so it can’t be helped. To draw manga you just need your head and hands. Anything else is unnecessary. Although I do think I should keep up my stamina while doing a serialisation, so it’d be bad if I kept going like this.
Mangaka can take a break whenever they want, but they don’t get any holidays. –Matsui'
Photo caption: Jojo has moved to Ultra Jump since Steel Ball Run. Araki-sensei is currently working on Jojolion, but he says the current amount of pages matches his personal rhythm better.
How do you two gather data and materials?
Matsui: I’ve been relying on the internet a lot recently.
Araki: For me it’s still books. However, I have to buy them at a physical bookstore, or it won’t work. I want to choose a book from a bookstore that I like.
Matsui: Where do you buy them normally?
Araki: In Shinjuku or Aoyama. If I go there I’ll know what’s popular, or what the staff recommends. I want to see those things. If I look online I’ll just see the things I like. Without realising I’ll only look for the things I like, so bookstores and CD shops in which I can see what others recommend are an indispensable source of information for me.
I’d like to ask about your weekly schedules and how you work. Araki-sensei, has your work pace changed since you moved from Weekly Jump to Ultra Jump?
Araki: Weekly Jump was 19 pages per week, but that rhythm didn’t work for me. I really wanted to draw 21 pages per week. Since I’ve gone to Ultra Jump it’s become 45 pages per month. This matches my natural work rhythm better, so I can draw comfortably every month.
Matsui: That’s unusual! For me, 19 pages per week is a bit too much. Bringing that to 21 pages even… doesn’t it become a bit demanding? (laughs)
Araki: That’s true. But for Jojo I want the decisive panels to be big, so the page count goes up anyway.
Matsui: That’s typical of Jojo. If you put in “gogogogo” leading up to the decisive panels…. You’d have 21 pages very quickly.
Araki: Perhaps, yes. But what do you do when your name* ends at 17 pages? (*t/n: A name is a manga manuscript)
Matsui: It’s not that hard to increase the amount. If I’m 2 pages short I’ll consult with my editor. He’ll generally say something like “let’s add these elements”, and when I incorporate those it usually turns out fine. That’s the easiest way.
Araki: I see.
Matsui: On the other hand, it’s much harder to take things out of the material I’ve already got. I take care not to waste too much time on that. I’ve already got my hands full just trying to get it done every week. How did you manage when you worked weekly?
Araki: On Sunday I’d do the name. On Monday I got that checked by my editor, and from Tuesday to Thursday I’d draw with the assistants. On Thursday we’d also discuss the next chapter. Friday and Saturday were my days off.
Matsui: What an ideal week. For veterans like you or Akimoto-sensei* it’s okay, but there’s no one of my age that can pull that off.
- 1… Akimoto Osamu, the creator of Weekly Jump’s longest running manga, Kochikame. He’s looked up to by other mangaka for thoroughly keeping to his schedule and never missing a deadline in over 40 years of serialisation.
Photo caption: Matsui-sensei is giving his all for Assassination Classroom. He doesn’t have time to take a holiday at this point.
Araki: What does your weekly schedule look like?
Matsui: 3 days for the name, 2 days for the sketches. Finishing up with the assistants also takes 2 days. Recently I’ve changed this to 4 days for the name, 1 day for the sketches and 2 days for finishing up with the assistants. There isn’t a day where I can take the whole day off. However, I think the 4 days I take for the name do include breaks of some kind. Mangaka can take a break whenever they want, but they don’t get any holidays. If you have some free time, you have to use every spare moment to make your story more interesting. It’s hard to take a proper holiday. In that sense, you veterans are good at relaxing. The better you get at work, the better you get at play.
Araki: Fujiko A-sensei* is amazing. I think it’s something personal, that exceeds technique, which brings forth that sort of appeal to a manga.
- 2…A veteran mangaka famous for works such as Pro Golfer Saru and The Laughing Salaryman. Also famous for associating with a wide variety of people, such as the actress Rie Miyazawa and the singer Inoshita Yousui.
Matsui: In my own generation there aren’t that many people that can relax like that. Myself especially, I can’t even say I have a hobby of any kind. That unrelenting energy and willpower, staying active as a mangaka until your 60s…. I can’t imagine it. Last year was Jojo’s 25th year, but you don’t draw it thinking “I should keep going” or anything do you?
Araki: I don’t.
Matsui: Your body moves naturally?
Araki: No. But 30 years pass in no time at all, you know. And I have examples like A-sensei and Akimoto-sensei.
Matsui: To me, you’re a great example as well!
Araki: Thank you. I’m already 53, but I think I should try to keep going until I’m about 60. I think you should take it easy and focus on making your current work interesting!
Next, I’d like to hear about your works. I’d like to talk about Jojo’s Bizarre Adventure first. How was it when your serialisation first started a quarter century ago?
Araki: When I debuted in the 80’s, Jump was full of people that emitted this intense power. I debuted amongst that, so in order to survive I had to emit a power strong enough to stand up to them. In other words, I had to show my own style. When I started Jojo, I think I finally managed to show something like that. I finally found my own direction. In the 7–8 years before that, I kept wandering, struggling to find my originality, my colour. Those were my twenties.
Matsui: But from our point of view, the works you made before that, like “Magic Boy B.T.” and “Baoh”, are pretty distinct as well! No matter how you look at it, it’s Araki-ism.
Araki: Back then, I used to draw while looking at Shirato-sensei’s* works. I moved my pen, wondering what to do.
- 1…One of the pioneers of the “narrative comic” genre of manga in the 1960’s. He gained fame with his ninja works such as “Sasuke”, and managed to draw adults to manga with the philosophical elements of “The Legend of Kamui”.
Matsui: I get that. To me, you were my Shirato-sensei. When I was young, I tried really hard to get rid of your influence. I think I’ve finally managed to shed all of it recently.
Araki: ‘Hiding’ those things means you’ve finally found your own sense of direction. You can clearly draw whatever it is that you want to draw. You can’t have any doubts there.
Matsui: That’s right. But I think it’s too late to escape things I already know. For instance, if an enemy is slowly following someone and it’d be good to put in “gogogogogo”, I think to myself “If you put it in, you lose”, but I still end up putting it in. It’s like that. I mean to put in something original, but then when I look back at it later I often think “This was influenced by that work”.
Araki: For me, it’s the main characters’ thick eyebrows. It took me 10 years to get those thick boy’s magazine-style eyebrows back to thin eyebrows. Truth be told, I just can’t do it because thin eyebrows gross me out. Maybe it’s just bias, but without realising, this influence became deeply ingrained within me.
Matsui: Jotaro had some pretty thick ones too.
Araki: Yes. A supporting character like Kakyoin can have thin eyebrows, but for a main character like Jotaro I just can’t make them thin.
Matsui: Back then, there was that kind of formula where characters with thin eyebrows had weak emotions, so they were supporting characters.
Araki: But when you’re trying to follow your own path, you should break away from those formulas.
Matsui: That’s true! By the way, how old were you when you started Jojo?
Araki: I was about 26-27. You see, people who were at the top like Yudetamago-sensei* and Takahashi Youichi-sensei*already found their style in their teens. So I was really fretting. At the time it gave me a serious complex.
- 2…A famous manga duo known for the superhuman pro wrestling comic “Kinnikuman”. You can still read new episodes of Kinnikuman in Weekly Playboy Webcomic!
- 3…The mangaka of the immortal soccer manga “Captain Tsubasa”. His works gave rise to an immense soccer boom amongst primary school kids, and has influenced many J-leaguers and world-famous soccer players.
Matsui: Nowadays people are quite premature. I was quite late as well, debuting at 25, so I was pretty frantic until I became 30.
I think that even amongst all those other manga, Jojo is a particularly ambitious work. – Matsui.
Araki: Have you ever had your manuscript rejected by an editor before?
Matsui: Actually, it’s only been small comments like adjusting the dialogue in one panel. I haven’t really had any rejection, so I can say I’ve been allowed to draw freely. What’s rejection like?
Araki: I was once made to redraw all 19 pages! That’s how it was back then. New mangaka all had to undergo this kind of baptism. If you said “I only have two days left, do I really have to redraw everything?” they just replied with “Kurumada-sensei* does it too”.
- 4…Kurumada Masami-sensei of “Kojirou of the Fuuma” and “Saint Seiya” fame. One of Weekly Jump’s top runners, churning out hit series since the 70’s.
Matsui: That’s unfair! In those 2 precious days you could have thought of some valuable topics.
Araki: However, if I look back at it, my drawings were really kind of unstable. The faces on the first and last page are a little different.
Matsui: Couldn’t you have tried getting really angry to see if your editor would give in? (laughs)
Everyone bursts out laughing.
Araki: I tried to protest, but it was futile. Even my popular seniors redrew their work if the editor demanded it. A beginner like me had no margin to object, so I resigned to redrawing.
Matsui: Back then they had that style of training where rookies were burdened both mentally and physically.
Araki: That’s right. Something like the Showa* style. In any case, it was ridiculous! (laughs) (*t/n: Showa is the historical period lasting from 1926 to 1986)
Matsui: I think that these days the editors don’t need to test them that much, since there are a lot of people who will draw without complaining or fighting. Even though it’s the same Weekly Jump, it really changes with the times.
Araki: Though I think the passion to bring interesting manga to the readers hasn’t changed.
Matsui: That’s right. I agree!
Matsui-sensei, you think that Jojo is the greatest masterpiece in history when it comes to drawing grotesque things. But what do you think is so greatly grotesque about Jojo?
Matsui: A lot of the grotesque things are in plain view, and it’s not as if these things can just be healed again. That’s impossible in other manga!
Araki: That’s why I got a lot of rejections. I couldn’t show erotica either. Even if I used stands to portray things, it was all rejected.
Matsui: I think they allowed a lot more than in other works though.
Araki: Well, there were many unprecedented things in Jojo, so the hurdle was pretty low. Still, there were a lot of topics that got rejected.
Matsui: Wow! I’m really curious!! But I’m sure they’re kind of embarrassing to say.
Araki: Yes (laughs).
Matsui: I think that even amongst all those other manga, Jojo is a particularly ambitious work. I’m really interested in the things you thought up that were too ambitious for your editor to understand. I wanted to see those things. It’s a real pity…… Ah, I also get the feeling that you’re alternating between drawing Jojo in a small and a large world setting. Were you aiming for that?
Araki: Maybe I was, yes. Thank you for noticing. When you’ve drawn a small world for a long time, don’t you feel like travelling? I’m just repeating that process.
Matsui: So Morioh, which also appears in Jojolion, is an example of that too?
Photo caption: In Sendai, which stood model for Morioh, there have been many collaborations, like celebrating Jojo's 25th anniversary with an exhibition last year.
Araki: Yes. I used my hometown of Sendai in Miyagi prefecture as a model for Morioh. I made it into a fictional place because I thought they might complain, but they were really happy I used it. I thought “The times sure have changed”.
Matsui: I was actually pretty surprised you drew such a familiar world for your manga.
Araki: Someone told me “I was surprised to see you do something Japanese”. Is it that surprising?
Matsui: Yes. Even when Morioh first appeared in part 4, it still had something foreign.
Araki: But in my personal life I don’t really get out of the neighbourhood I live in. Before I drew part 5 I went to Italy every year though. Recently I haven’t gone out of the country for anything non-work related.
Jojo is currently up to part 8, but what has been the main cause for you to continue for over 25 years?
Araki: It’s accidental. I didn’t plan for it to be like this, nor did I expect it. I don’t even know what will happen next year.
Last time you said you wanted to continue drawing until you were 60, but what part is Jojo up to by then?
Araki: I’m really not thinking about that! I’m just giving Jojolion my all right now. We’ll know when we get there, won’t we (laughs).
Matsui: That reminds me….. you like zombie movies and horror-type things don’t you?
Araki: I love all zombie movies, from the masterpieces to the absolutely terrible ones.
Matsui: I really don’t have a hobby, so I’d like to have one. I don’t really like gaming either. If I had to say anything, it’d probably just be eating good food.
Araki: You don’t watch horror movies?
Matsui: I watch some every now and then, but I can’t say I watch them all or anything. I’m the type of person who decides what to use from a small number of good and bad movies, rather than learn from watching a lot of them.
Araki: Ah, I see….. I thought you must be a horror movie fan too though.
Matsui: Well, it’s true that I love horror movies. Jojo is like horror movies in that at a glance, it seems to be in a genre that people would avoid, but is loved by everyone anyway and does really well.
Araki: You’re too kind. But it’s good to be perverse too! It’s fine to be perverse as long as you keep it limited. If you get serious about it no one will like you.
Matsui: Yes. If it doesn’t have some kind of charm about it, people won’t like it in the end. Even the most inhumane character should have some kind of charm point. In that sense, don’t you think zombies are super charming?
Araki: Exactly! Zombie movies are really great. I think there’s something wrong with people who say “I can’t watch zombie movies because they’re scary”, even though they haven’t watched any (laughs). But I’ll go on forever if we keep talking about zombie movies, so let’s end it here.
Everyone bursts out laughing.
Araki: We’d need 2 hours if we had this conversation, so let’s talk about zombie movies another time.
As long as the starting point is controversial, it’s fine to be moral afterwards. -Matsui
Photo caption: Korosensei has many tentacles. The gap between his striking appearance and his personality as a humorous, ideal teacher has been reflected in the story since its beginning.
Araki-sensei, I’d like to hear your thoughts on Assassination Classroom.
Araki: It deals with a pretty risky theme, so if it was handled wrong there’d be a lot of complaints. Within that theme you’ve managed to draw about things like school life and friendship, while still keeping morality in mind. It thought that was splendid.
Matsui: I always take great care in making sure no one will copy the actions in my work. For that reason I also needed to create a teacher that isn’t human. The students also use fake knives for their assassinations, so I’m really careful.
Araki: I see. But that edge is what makes it charming. The title, “Assassination Classroom”, is pretty controversial too.
Matsui: It’s just that though. I make the start controversial and then play it safe on the rest.
Araki: But having “assassination” as a theme is still pretty controversial.
Matsui: Thank you! That reminds me. In Jojo, people would slip in the bath and look up at the ceiling…...at which point the battle starts. I don’t think there’s anyone else but you who could turn such an every-day scene into a dramatic, tense battle.
Araki: That’s thanks to working for Weekly Jump all those years. You simply have to draw battles. That’s a very unique working culture, isn’t it? But it’s also a curse that’s quite hard to get rid of.
Matsui: It makes me want to see you draw something that isn’t about battles. What would it be like if you drew a genuine story manga?
Araki: Wouldn’t that be pretty boring? (laughs) In the end, I think battles are the foundation of manga. There’s a main character, a villain and friends. I think my themes are pretty conventional, such as “Good and Evil” or “Conflict”. But even if you make it romance or gags, isn’t everything a battle in the end? Whether you’re deciding to have curry or ramen for lunch; every choice you make is a form of battle.
Matsui: I see! I’m also pretty conscious of what kinds of characters would appeal to kids these days. The kids niche might change and all. Maybe I dealt with it the wrong way, but when I drew this pretty bad character getting beaten up, some people still disapproved of that, even though I got a lot of votes*. (*t/n: The popularity of manga in WJ is decided by a system of voting through a survey card that is attached in the magazine every week. You pick your three favourite manga of that week and send it in.)
Araki: So you should have let them reconcile.
Matsui: No matter how bad the character is, if you just beat them up it’ll end up leaving a bad taste.
Araki: In Jojo they’re just beyond recovery though. When I think “I don’t need these guys anymore”.
Everyone bursts out laughing.
Matsui: “They put me through all that, so I can have my revenge”, right? I’m jealous that your unique worldview is so accepted by the readers.
I think Assassination Classroom’s story will progress rapidly from here on out, but will we be seeing any new characters?
Photo caption: The students keep developing through their time with Korosensei. The story will expand even further in the second semester!!
Matsui: I had a very solid structure for the first semester. Introducing the characters, introducing the world setting. By now I think everyone will remember the students’ names and faces, so I want to gradually expand the story through the second semester. I’m thinking I could show the kids using their assassination skills in the outside world a bit more.
We look forward to future developments! Finally, if you could give each other some words of encouragement, as well as a message to the Jump Live readers?
Matsui: I couldn’t say everything because I was so nervous, but since middle school, Jojo has been part of my youth. I can’t put it all in one word, but if I must say something it’s….. I love it!!
Araki: I don’t get many chances to meet artists from the new generation, so I was really glad to be able to do this. I’m honoured to have been asked for this and I’m grateful we were able to have such a deep conversation. This time it was a video and a discussion, but next time I’d like to draw manga too. Thank you for everything today.
Matsui: Aw, you’ve said everything already.
Everyone bursts out laughing.
Matsui: Assassination Classroom is contributing to Jump Live in various ways, like mini-games and special drawings. Korosensei has a pretty simple form, so it’s easy to make him appear in all sorts of things. I’d like to have him use that light footwork and appear in Jump Live again sometime, so please keep supporting us!
And just like that, this bizarre special discussion comes to an end! Look forward to Araki-sensei and Matsui-sensei’s further activities![1]
『暗殺教室』の松井優征先生が、あこがれの荒木飛呂彦先生と邂逅。 話題は、松井先生
が原点だと語る『ジョジョ』へと移っていく。
『ジョジョ』を始めるまでの７～８年、の作風をずっと探し求めていました。
（荒木）
━━今度はお２人の作品について伺いたいと思います。まずは『ジョジョの奇妙四半世な
冒険』ですが、紀前に連載がスタートした頃はどんな感じでしたか？
荒木：僕がデビューした1980年代の少年ジャ ンプは「これぞ○○節！」という、
強烈な光を放つ先輩達がひしめき合っていて。
その中デビューしたけど、生き残っていくには周囲に負けない強い光、つまりは
作風を出していかないといけなかったんだよね。
『ジョジョ』を連載した時、やっとそういうものが出せた気がした。自分の方向性
が分かってきんです。そこまでの７～８年は、自分だけの個性、色を探しても
がき続け、迷走していたねー。そんな20代でした。
松井：その前に描かれていた『魔少年ビー ティー』や『バオー来訪者』も、
僕らから見たら色がハッキリしてますよ！どう見ても荒木イズムじゃないですか。
荒木：あの辺の作品は、白土先生（※１）の作品 だとかそういうのを勉強しながら
描いてた。どうしていいか、迷いながらもペンを動かしていたんだよね。
※1.1960年代、『劇画』というマンガジャンルを 確立させたパイオニアの１人。
『サスケ』等の忍者もので人気を博し、『カムイ 伝』はその哲学的内容で、数多くの大
人読者をマンガへと引き込んだ。
松井：分かります。僕にとっては荒木先生が、荒木先生にとっての白土先生だったん
ですよ。とにかく若い頃は荒木先生の影響力を消すのに必死で。
最近、ようやくその影響が消せるようになってきたかなと思っているんですが。
荒木：『 隠す』という事は、逆に自分の方向性、描きたいものがハッキリしてくる
から出来るんだよね。そこに迷いがあったらダメなんだな。
松井：そうですね。でも今さら知ってしまったものからは逃げられないというか。
例えば、徐々に敵が迫っている時「ゴゴゴゴゴ」 とやればいい、というのを見て
しまうと「入れたら負けだ」と思っても入れてしまう。そういう感じなんですよ。
オリジナルで入れたつもりが、後から見たら「コ レの影響を受けてるな～」
という事も結構あります。
荒木：僕はね～、主人公の太い眉毛。少年誌ぽい太い眉毛をv、細い眉毛にするのに10年
かかった。本当に気持ち悪くて出来ないんだよ。先入観というか、知らず知らずに
深く刷り込まれている影響ってあるんだよね。
松井：承太郎もけっこう太かったですよね。
荒木：承太郎も太かった。脇役である花京院の眉毛なら細くできるけど、それを主人公の
承太郎にやるのは、なかなか出来なくて。
松井：当時だと、眉毛薄いキャラって情が薄くて脇役という公式がありましたもんね。
荒木：でも、何かを切り拓く時はその公式から外れないといけないんだよ。
松井：ですよねー。ちなみに『ジョジョ』は、何歳の頃から連載を始められたんですか？
荒木：26、27歳位からです。トップを走ってたゆでたまご先生（※２）や高橋陽一先
生（※３）なんて、10代であの作風が出来てたからね。すごく焦ったし、僕にとっては
当時すごいコンプレックスでした。
※２…超人プロレスマンガ『キン肉マン』で、WJの歴史に名を残すマンガ家コンビ。
『キン肉マ ン』は、現在も『週刊プレイボート web comic』で最新エピソードが連載中
※３…不朽のサッカーマンガ『キャプテン翼』を描 いたマンガ家。作品は全国の小学生
にサッカー ブームを巻き起こし、多くのＪリーガーや、世界 の有名サッカー選手に
多大なる影響を与えた。
松井：最近の人も早熟ですよね。俺もデビューが25歳と遅かったので、30までは
ホント必死でした。
『ジョジョ』は並み居るマンガの中でも、特に野心的な作品ですからね。（松井）
荒木：これまで編集者に大ボツ食らったりした事はありますか？
松井：ホント１コマのセリフとか細かい指摘だけですね。
あまりボツを食らった事がないので、自由に描かせてもらってると言った方が
ピッタリくる感じです。どうですか、ボツは？
荒木：19ページ、全部描き直しとかありましたよ！昔はそうだったよ。
新人マンガ家は皆くぐる洗礼だったよ。
「後２日しかないのに、全部描き直すんですか？」って言うと、
「車田先生（※４）もやってるよ」って言われて。
※４…『風魔の小次郎』や『聖闘士星矢』で知られる車田正美先生。70年代より
ヒット作を連発してきた、ＷＪのトップランナーの１人。
松井：それ理不尽じゃないですか！その貴重な2日で大切なネタが考えられるかもしれ
ないのに。
荒木：でもね、やっぱり見返すと絵がちょっと不安定で。最初のページと最後のページで
、顔がちょっと違ってたりしたんですよ。
松井：一度キレてみて、相手が折れるか様子を見てみたらいいんじゃないですか？(笑)
全員：（爆笑）
荒木：抵抗はしてみたけど、ダメだった。人気作家の先輩方でさえ、編集のツルの一声
で描き直し反論する余地ゼロなんだから。新人の僕なんか、だから観念して
描き直しましたよ。
松井：当時は、精神だけじゃなく、肉体的にも負荷をかけて新人を鍛えあげるスタイル
だったんですね。
荒木：そうですね。昭和のスタイルというか。とにかくムチャばっかりなんですよ!!(笑)
松井：最近はケンカせず、特に文句も言わず淡々 と描く人が多いと思うんで、試練も
与える必要ないんでしょうね。同じＷＪでも時代が変わるとだいぶ変わりますよね
荒木：でも『面白いマンガを読者に届けるんだ！』という情熱は変わらないと思います。
松井：そうですよね。それは同感です！
━━松井先生は「グロイものを描いた作品では『ジョ ジョ』が史上最高の傑作だ」と
お考えだそうですが、松井先生が考える『ジョジョ』の史上最高なグロさって何でしょう
か？
松井：やっぱり直接描写の多さであり、とにかく治療不可能なところ。
まず無理ですよ！他の漫画じゃ。
荒木：だから、けっこうNGがあるんですよ。エロもダメだね。
スタンドを通してやっても全部ダメだった。
松井：許されている範囲は、他の作品に比べてかなりデカイと思うんですけど。
荒木：あ、『ジョジョ』は前例がないケースが多いから、けっこうハードル低いですよ。
しかしながら、それでもボツになったネタも結構あって。
松井：うわ！ 超気になる!! でも、ちょっと言え ないヤツばっかりなんですよね。
荒木：はい(笑)。
松井：『ジョジョ』は並み居るマンガの中でも、特に野心的な作品ですからね。
荒木さんの考える、野心的すぎて編集者に理解されなかったモノって凄い興味
あります。それは見たかったですね。残念……。
あ、あと 『ジョジョ』って各部ごとに狭い世界と広い世界を交互に描いてる気
がしますが、アレって狙ってるんですか？
荒木：そうかも知れないですね。気付いて頂い て、ありがとうございます。ずっと
狭い世界を描いていると、旅に出たくなったりするじゃないで すか。
その繰り返しですね。
松井：『ジョジョリオ ン』にも出てくる杜王 町は、その代表というか。
荒木：そうですね。杜王町は、自分の生まれ故郷の宮城県仙台市をモデルにしたんです
。でも、あれも地元からクレームが来るんじゃない かと思って架空の土地にしたのに、
すごく喜んでいただけて。「時代は変わったな」と思いました。
松井：荒木さんがこんな身近な世界を描くとは、 正直驚きましたね。
荒木：「意外と和風な事もするんですね」とも言 われました。意外ですか？
松井：はい。4部で杜王町が初登場した時も、とこか外国っぽさが残ってたので。
荒木：でも私生活では、本当に住んでいるエリアからほとんど出ないんですよ。
５部を描く前とかは毎年イタリアに行ったりしてましたけど。
最近では、仕事以外では海外に行く事はほとんどないですね。
━━現在『ジョジョ』は八部がＵＪで連載中ですが、25年以上続けてこれた
一番の要因は何ですか？
荒木：偶然ですね。こんなになるとは考えなかったし、予想もしていないですし。
今でも、来年の事すら分からないです。
━━前回60歳位までは描き続けたいとおっしゃっていま したが、その頃『ジョジョ』
は何部まで行ってますか？
荒木：そんなの全然考えてない！今は『ジョジョリオン』に全力投球ですよ。まあ、
その時になってみればわかるんじゃないですかね(笑)。
５部を描く前とかは毎年イタリアに行ったりしてましたけど。
最近では、仕事以外では海外に行く事はほとんどないですね。
━━現在『ジョジョ』は八部がＵＪで連載中ですが、25年以上続けてこれた
一番の要因は何ですか？
荒木：偶然ですね。こんなになるとは考えなかったし、予想もしていないですし。今
でも、来年の事すら分からないです。
━━前回60歳位までは描き続けたいとおっしゃっていま したが、その頃『ジョジョ』
は何部まで行ってますか？
荒木：そんなの全然考えてない！今は『ジョジョリオン』に全力投球ですよ。まあ、
その時になってみればわかるんじゃないですかね(笑)。
『ジョジョの奇妙な冒険』の荒木飛呂彦先生と『暗殺 教室』の松井優征先生による
夢対談！荒木先生が愛してやまぬゾンビ映画の話から『暗殺教師』の話までをも
網羅する最終回!!ゾンビ映画はいいですよ！（荒木）
松井：そういえば、ゾンビ映画とかホラーもの……お好きなんですよね？
荒木：ゾンビ映画は、傑作からくだらなすぎる作品まで全部好きですね。
松井：僕、ホラーに無趣味なんで、趣味が欲しいんですよ。ゲームもあまり好きじゃ
ないし。辛うじて、美味しいもの食べるの位ですかね。
荒木：ホラー映画は見ないの？
松井：ちょいちょいは見るんですけど。端から端まで全部見るといった感じにはなら
ないんですよ。映画を見ても、たくさんの作品を見て勉強するというよりは、
駄作でも名作でも、本当に数少ないものの端っこから「これ使えるな」というモノ
を拾っていくタイプなんで。
荒木：あぁ、そうなんだ……。同じホラー映画ファンの匂いがしたんだけどな。
松井：ホラー映画、好きなのは間違いないんですけどね。
『ジョジョ』はホラー映画とか、一見すると敬遠されそうなジャンルに属して
いながらもみんなに愛され、その中では最高レベルの成績を未だに残し続けている。
本当に素晴らしいですよ。
荒木：ありがたいですねー。でも、悪趣味はイイよ！ 悪趣味を一旦吸収してから差し
出せば、みんな大丈夫なんだ。マジになって悪趣味をやったら嫌われちゃうからね。
松井：やっぱり、最終的には可愛げがないと嫌われちゃんでしょうねー。 どんなに
悪趣味だったり、残虐非道なキャラクターでもどこか可愛げがないといけません
よね。その意味で言ったら、ゾンビなんて可愛げの塊じゃないですか？
荒木：そうそう！ やっぱりゾンビ映画はいいで すよ。 見てもいないのに「ゾンビ
映画が恐いからダメだ」って言う人は、人間的にダメだと思う。(笑) ゾンビ映画
の話を始めると止まらなくなるから、もう終わりにしよう。
全員：（爆笑）
荒木：この話するんだったら、２時間は必要だからね。ゾンビ映画の話は、また
別の機会にという事で。
初の一つだけトガっていれば後は王道でいい（松井）
荒木先生には、『暗殺教室』をご覧になった感想もお聞きいたいのですが。
荒木：本当は危ないテーマを取り上げていて、ヘタするとクレームだらけになり
そうな所だけど。 その中でも王道の作品作りを意識して、学園生活とか友情とか
を描いている点が素晴らしいと思いました。
松井：見た人がマネをしないよう、常に気を配ってます。それもあって、人間型では
ない先生を考える必要があったんです。生徒達が暗殺に使うのも疑似ナイフですし
、すごく気は使っていますね。
荒木：なる程。でも、そのギリギリなとこが魅力なんですよね。
『暗殺教室』って言うタイトルもトガがってるじゃない。
松井：そこだけですね。最初のスタートダッシュだけトガっておいて、後は無難に。
荒木でも『殺す』っていうテーマはトガってるよ。
松井：ありがとうございます！そう言えば『ジョジョ』の作中で、風呂ですべった時に
天井を見上げたら……という所からバトルが始まったりするじゃないですか。
あの身近な出来事を、ドラマとスピード感で緊張感あふれる戦いに仕上げられる
のは荒木さんしかいないのかな～と思います。
荒木：それは長年ＷＪで描いてきた訓練の賜物ですね。絶対にバトルにしないとダメ
だから。すごく独特な文化だよね。でも、その呪縛を抜け出すのも大変なんだ。
松井：逆に荒木さんのバトルものじゃない作品も見てみたいです。
純粋に、淡々とした物語を描いたらどうなんですかね？
荒木：さすがに、それはつまんないんじゃないの？(笑)やっぱり戦いは基本なのかな
と思うけどね。主人がいて悪役がいて、仲間がいて。 僕は、やっぱり「善と悪」
か「戦い」って普遍的なテーマだと思う。 恋愛にしてもギャグにしても、全てが
一応バトルじゃないですか？ 昼ごはんはカレーとラーメンのどっちにするかとか、
全ての選択はバトルの種なんですよ。
松井：なる程ー。後、今の子供達の中で魅力的なキャラってどんなだろうって言うのは、
いつも考えてますね。子供のニーズが変わってるのかもしれないな。
自分のやり方が下手だったのか、結構悪い感じのキャラをコテンパンした時に、
票自体は良かり方が下手だったのか、結構悪い感じのキャラをコテンパンした時
に、票自体は良かったんですが、一部に拒否感を示す人もいて。
荒木：本当は仲直りさせないといけなかったんだね。
松井：コテンパンにしたまんまだと、やっぱり後味が悪いんですよ。
どんなに悪い奴でも。
荒木：『ジョジョ』の場合は再起不能になるけどね。「もういらない」と思ったら。
全員：（爆笑）
松井：「あれだけヒドい目に合わされたんだから、こっちも仕返ししていいだろう」
って事ですよね。
荒木さんが築いた独自の世界観が、読者に受け入れられていて羨ましいです。
『暗殺教室』も、今後どんどん物語が進んで行くと思いますが、新キャラとかが
出たりしますか？
松井：これまでの一学期は基礎固め。キャラを紹介して、世界を紹介して。生徒達の
名前と顔も大体覚えてもらった所なので、夏休みと２学期からは少しずつ展開
して行きたいですね。外の世界で、身につけた暗殺の技術をもうちょっと使えるよう
見せられたらな～と思います。
－今後の展開も楽しみにしています！ それでは最後、お互いに応援の一言とジャンプ
LIVE読者への一言をお願いします。
松井：緊張してしまって全然語り尽くせなかったんですけど、『ジョジョ』は本当に
中学生からの青春だったんです。一言では言えないんですけど、強いて言うなら…
… 愛してます!!
荒木：新しい世代の作家さんにお会いできる機会は滅多にないので、今日はとても嬉
しかったです。こうして呼んで頂けたのもすごく光栄だし、深い話もさせて頂いて
、とてもありがたかったですね。今回は動画撮影と対談でしたが、
次回はマンガでも愛してます!!
荒木：新しい世代の作家さんにお会いできる機会は滅多にないので、今日はとても
嬉しかったです。こうして呼んで頂けたのもすごく光栄だし、深い話もさせて
頂いて、とてもありがたかったですね。今回は動画撮影と対談でしたが、
次回はマンガでも、ぜひ参加させて頂ければと思っています。
今日はありがとうございました。
松井：えー、だいたい荒木さんが言われてしまったんですけど。
全員：（爆笑）
松井：このジャンプLIVE内では、『暗殺教室』もミニゲームや描きおろしイラスト等、
様々な形で参加させてもらっています。殺せんせーはフォルムが単純なので、
色んな場所に出て行きやすいんですよね。
そのフットワークの軽さをいかして、今後ともジャンプLIVEに顔を出して
行きたいと思 いますので、どうかよろしくお願いします！
