User talk:Nabu

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Appearance Changes

Sinjoh (talkcontribs)

I just want to ask why you're removing or changing the statuses on in the appearances sections of the chapter pages. I don't understand why you're doing so, like removing character deaths (such as Mary Joestar and Dario Brando's deaths in Chapter 1), if characters appeared in flashbacks (like Wang Chan who first appeared in a flashback in Chapter 7), or whose first appearance and/or death was in a flashback (such as Sherry in Chapter 127). I also don't get why you've changed Santana and Kars from Immobilized and Mental Death to Retired, when it's outright stated that the SPW Foundation has Santana immobilized under UV lights and Kars went brain-dead.

Nabu (talkcontribs)

Hey, thank you for contacting me on such matters.

So, the thing is that while exhaustivity of information is great, ergonomy is also great. If we put every status in the avatar, the text begins to cover the avatar and then user had trouble looking at it. So I've been narrowing status to what I consider the most significant status. On that point, I will recognize that I'm certainly not doing the best job and it is arguable what the most significant status is for a particular character in one chapter.

For instance, I think the "death" status is best applied to on-screen deaths, not those that are stated but not shown like for Dario and Mary Joestar. That is arguable and is probably worthy of further discussion.

Also, it's best that we use "Retired" instead of particular status for standardization purposes. Retired meaning "this guy is not dead, dead, but he definitively lost and won't threaten the good guys again." That's why I changed the status for Santana and Kars.

Sinjoh (talkcontribs)

I definitely see where you're coming from, however I do believe that the wiki should have consistency internally. If a character dies, it should be put there regardless if it happens off-panel or not (even with this you're not consistent with it, as Speedwagon and Erina's deaths both occur off-panel in Ch. 113 and are only mentioned, like Dario's and Mary's in Ch. 1), if they're only in a flashback, it should be noted, etc.

Honestly I really disagree with Santana and Kars being "retired". Santana was turned to stone after being hit by the sun's rays, he had no active decision in "retiring". Kars literally stopped thinking and went brain-dead after being sent into space. I'd also highly doubt you'd consider Magent Magent as being retired, who also went brain-dead, much like Kars.

Nabu (talkcontribs)

The discussion has been brought to the rest of the admins and moderators, and we're deliberating on how to address this issue at the moment. I recognize I'm not really consistent with the statues either and that my opinions are not the law either, however, if the status begin to hide the characters, that's a problem too. As a wiki, we should also filter details and pay attention to how the pages look.

It seems that you don't know what retired means in JoJo. "Retired" is the anglicism Araki uses to say this (再起不能) in Japanese, And 再起不能 mean "no hope of recovery". It is unique to JJBA and its meaning is encompasses a large range of situations. That's why I'm using it.

Sinjoh (talkcontribs)

You are correct that I'm unaware of the term that Araki uses in the original Japanese, and I've been consuming JoJo for the past 2-3 years now. I'm now concerned of this because to someone who might not be familiar with JoJo enough, don't know Japanese, or have never consumed the series, they're going to be confused by the word "retired" used for characters like Santana, Kars, and Magent Magent (though I will point out that the latter two are on the list of deaths, which would create even more confusion).

I do get that Japanese to English translations aren't always going to be evenly 1:1, but wouldn't a better translation for "再起不能" be something like "Out of Commission" or "Incapacitated" as opposed to "retired"? (I will just quickly note that the latter is used for Santana in Ep. 13.)

I do thank you for bring this to the other admins, and I do wish to know, as I do want to continue assisting with the replacement of the character tables, and if there's going to be a change to them, I would want to do both in one swoop.

Nabu (talkcontribs)

So first, Araki really use "Retire/Retired". He uses the katakanas for it at least. It's not like we are translating.

At the end there's a case for both ways. Do we make the site as newbie friendly as possible, or do we acknowledge that Jojo is confusing and weird and don't second guess Araki. Some want us to spoiler part 1, when it's 30 years old. Some want to really place the US names beside the original names. And then there's this "retired/incapacitated" thing.

So at the end, I think you can continue to replace character tables. We can always rework them later.

Vish (talkcontribs)

Yeah, the narrator also says "Retired" in English in the Japanese version of All Star Battle/Eyes of Heaven when a character is defeated. I made Template:Retired which you can use now. If you hover over it, it describes what the term means.

Sinjoh (talkcontribs)

Thank you, I just replaced those on Rubber Soul, ZZ, Steely Dan, and Arabia Fats's defeat chapters. Though I would still be hesitant for using said term for Kars and Magent Magent, though, since the two are brain-dead.

Nabu (talkcontribs)

Now you're being unreasonable. Kars is not physically dead, he's merely brain dead.

Sinjoh (talkcontribs)

Yes, why the hell do you think I've been putting "Mental death" back. I've even stated he was brain dead multiple times in this thread. I even stated that he and Magent Magent were on the list of character deaths in my third post.

Nabu (talkcontribs)

You're being specific, and being brain-dead is covered by the Retired status.

Even if they are on the death list, that doesn't mean they're dead, dead. The Death list is more of a general demise list too. That's why we got Diavolo here too.

Sinjoh (talkcontribs)

How am I being specific when I'm using a term that the wiki has been using for Kars for the longest time, and is still used on other pages? Again, I have stated previous in this thread that it could cause confusion for readers, seeing that Kars is listed as mentally dead on other pages except one.

If they're brain dead, they're clearly more than just retired.

Nabu (talkcontribs)

Retired doesn't merely mean being K.O. either. It literally means "no hope of recovery" in Japanese, and in Jojo specifically. Also I'd rather have readers be a little confused before they read the nice note that Vish put, because that's Jojo.

Sinjoh (talkcontribs)

That is not what I meant. I clearly stated that readers would be confused that Kars is being referred to mentally dead on other pages, such as in his own page, Episode 26, and the list of character deaths, but not on the chapter in which he goes brain dead. I am not referring to the definition of retired in relation to Jojo.

Nabu (talkcontribs)

Well, changed the Episode 26 and Kars' infobox to reflect his status.

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