“
I don't play fighting games myself, so I can't comment on that aspect, but I think it's amazing how perfectly they were able to recreate everything. It's beautiful. Whenever people try and adapt JoJo they always want to use a bunch of different colors. But this game actually suppresses the colors and makes them refined/quiet. I think this is good, because it will keep players' eyes from getting tired. I think the more colors on the screen increases the exhaustion in one's eyes. I also think the cutting-edge CG technology they used did a great job of capturing the atmosphere.
The characters have been recreated so well, they may look cooler than they are in the manga. (Laugh) There's a psychological level to the battles here. I like how they've made it something more than just a fighting game.
The town of Morio-cho appears in Parts 4 and 8, but they're in parallel worlds, so they aren't linked in time or space. The two Josukes would never meet each other normally. With this game, though, it becomes possible. At first I was bit taken aback. But then the bizarre nature to it all really got me interested. It's very entertaining. I would never allow something like this in the manga, but since this is a game, it's cool. Same thing with Jotaro fighting Dio Brando. The way the characters look is so different over the parts, though, that normally if you lined them all up they'd look very out of place with each other. But this game fixes all that, and I think that's one of its strengths.
Personally, I play a lot of horror action/adventure games. I like exploring a lot, not just fighting. I like puzzle games too. And I like sports and racing games too, as you might have figured from my inclusions of F-MEGA and Oh! That's a Baseball! in part 3. Lately games have been getting really "real." I still like cheap-looking games like F-MEGA.
Lately, though, I haven't really played any fighting games or shooting games. When I get excited during battles, my Adrenalin pumps up. I want games to heal me. That's why I play horror games. Horror heals me. (Laugh) Even in this game, the punch animations are just too fast for me. I'd rather watch them in slow motion.
I wish I had a technique that girls liked. (Laugh) Or, I wish I could appear as a side character, who says "Do your best!" and offers up an energy drink or something.
People who started reading JoJo when they were young have now become adults and are contributing to this project. I'm really amazed. And moved that we can work together to let the next generation read JoJo. I was so surprised when I heard they were going to make an anime. For 20 years, I've thought about how unsuited JoJo was for TV. (Laugh) It ended up being a lot bigger than I imagined it would. I'm so glad the fans enjoyed it.
People say my gallery showing in Florence was a success, but I don't have any strong feelings about that personally. But one thing I did notice is that whenever I go to Italy, I always hear people talking about Japanese manga. Dragon Ball, Naruto, and Yu Gi Oh are all very popular. And whenever people talk about Japanese manga they always talk about Japanese soccer. I suppose Captain Tsubasa has had a lot of influence over there. Whenever you mention Japan in Italy, it's either Naruto or Nagamoto (soccer player).
I listen to country and Western music a lot. It's like American "enka" music. I like the pure, "human" sound of the vocals.
As for movies, I mainly watch suspense and horror. Recently I saw "Life of Pi" and "Gangster Squad." They were very good. There look to be a lot of good horror movies coming out in 2013, including the Evil Dead remake, so I'm excited.
From here on out, in JoJolion, I plan to focus on the Higashikata family in more detail. But it won't be linked to Part 4 in any way. People keep asking me when Kishibe Rohan will appear, so let me answer that question: he won't. (Laugh) That is absolutely set in stone. Another weird mangaka will appear, though.
Q. What is manga to you?
A. Like how food is a blessing from the sky and earth, I think manga is a blessing from society. I'm receiving ideas and inspiration from Japan.
Q. Who do you respect?
A. Many people... Shirato Sanpei and Fujiko Fujio I've respected since long ago. Recently, I've really thought about how amazing pro mangaka who came before me are. Like how they've polished themselves so much, how much work they were able to handle... it'd be impossible in the present day. They were always so pure about how they faced their work. They weren't drawing manga because they wanted to become someone great. they just wanted to draw. That's what's so amazing.
Q. What's the most important thing in the world to you?
A. A lot is important to me... hmm. The most important thing would be my breathing technique, I suppose. (LOL) If my breathing gets bad, my stomach starts to hurt. So every morning, I use a special breathing technique. I store up breath around my ribs. It trains my inner muscles and connects me with the universe. It's pretty deep.
[1]”
Eureka November 2007 Hirohiko Araki Interview
Kaneda: A while ago, there was a story called "Let's Go Hunting" and I really liked how Josuke and Jotaro teamed up. First you have Josuke who always feels like he's about to burst into a rage but he's always reliable when push comes to shove. Then there's Jotaro who can get really mad and he'll barely lose the cool expression on his face. I thought them working together went well, I love that story. It's to be expected seeing as he's a scientist, but I'm really enthralled with how Jotaro knows so much about wild animals (laugh).
Araki: Yeah, I like partnerships. When I see artists that have partnerships, I get all jealous. Though I guess there's sort of a partnership between a mangaka and an editor. I liked the partnership of Josuke and Jotaro, too. They both have a kind of "pursuer" feel to them, don't they?
Kaneda: It was so cool when Jotaro said "You've got to be the one to shoot." and then went off to let himself become a decoy.
Araki: They have a relationship where they sort of bring out each other's strengths.
Kaneda: I think that because Josuke respects Jotaro so much, he feels a lot of pride from just being with him. It's an exceedingly good relationship, even one that almost crosses a certain line (laugh).
Editor: Sounds like she's reading into it in a yaoi sort of way. I guess she's excited by that sort of thing.
Araki: Oh, I see (laugh). Maybe it's better that I didn't write that, then.
Kaneda: Yeah! If you'd written that openly, there'd be no room for imagination and that'd ruin all the fun. I don't think anything like that would happen for the whole hunting thing, but if it turned into something like "After the hunt is over, do you wanna go to a hotel?", I feel like that'd be really overdoing it! (Laugh)
Also, if something like that were written in the story, there would be a lot of people that really like coupling and would say things like "the only one for Joutarou is Kakyoin!" So it would actually, it would actually narrow the scope of the story. So I really think that stopping just short of that is much better.
Araki: That kinda sounds like "Beverly Hills, 90210". This person and this person are connected, and this person is with so-and-so, that sorta thing.
Kaneda: It's good to draw all sorts of jumbled lines like that (laugh). That way it never goes to the point of actual acts, it's more desirable to be potential.
Araki: I see.
Kaneda: Really, from a boy's point of view a team play is "admirable friendship". and from a girl's point of view it's has a different kind of admiration. And we want it to end with that double meaning. Personally, I think Okuyasu and Josuke make a good partnership, too. Both are good-for-nothing-types. Truthfully, if Okuyasu were smart, he would have a top-class Stand. I think that the user not being smart strikes a good balance.
Araki: He's a lovable character, isn't he? (laugh).
Kaneda: I think Okuyasu is the best person you'd want for your friend. But in regards to partnerships, I think Johnny and Gyro in the current Part, "SBR" are the best.
Araki: That was me tracing the story of Part 1 with Zeppeli making Jonathan grow and trying to write it a bit more deeply. This time they're a bit closer in age, and I'm really enjoying writing their conversations.
Kaneda: I just love those pointless exchanges between the two. Like when Johnny used his evolved nail bullets to brush his teeth and Gyro gave that monotone response about being jealous (laugh). I remember thinking "This is how boys communicate!" when I read that.
Araki: Yeah, boys tend to have those sorts of pointless back-and-forth conversations a lot, don't they? (Laugh)
Kaneda: You really feel their friendship in those sorts of scenes. Rather than hug each other or anything, that makes them really charming to girls.
Saitou: But they have a fixed relationship, so they're kinda hard to couple, right?
Araki: Yeah, there really isn't much room there for reading too much into it, is there? I wanted to have a deeper connection of friendship between teacher and disciple than I did in Part 1.
Kaneda: It's written so richly, so they don't even need to be coupled, I guess. People have ideas about how Johnny is paralyzed in the lower half of his body, so while Gyro generally seems very cold, there are times at night when he has to care for Johnny and that sort of thing.
Araki: Yeah, I like that (laugh). Well, maybe I'll draw a scene of them in a night-time camp scene.
Kaneda: That sounds good! I hope you do (laugh)! Also, I'm hoping that Dio gets involved in their relationship somehow...... Fundamentally, Dio is a character who started out in poverty. So then, because of his desire to be successful in life, he's not afraid of anyone and he's not afraid to dirty himself to make his way to the top. Girls love that sort of thing. Fujoshi-wise, I mean in my mind, at the point in Part 6 where the character of Father Pucci that feels seriously about Dio, I've made this theory of "Dio = Princess" (laugh). Like he started out from the status of prostitute, so he dirtied his body with lots of different men, but his soul never lost its purity. And the 16 year old Pucci was attracted by that...... Early on, there's a scene where Dio and Pucci are sitting slovenly on the same bed facing different directions and having a discussion ('The Time of Heaven', "Stone Ocean" Volume 11). I simultaneously could barely believe my eyes and went mad with joy. That's the effect you must've been going for, right, Araki-sensei?
Araki: Uh... I didn't really think it would be taken that way, I don't think. Guys do that sorta thing all the time. Just sorta crashing someplace. Like when you go drinking and it gets late, so you need to stay over at somebody's place.
Kaneda: Eh, then you're saying that Father Pucci and Dio were out late drinking?! (Laugh) Um, I'm not so sure these are the types of characters who would crash at each other's place because they missed the last train for the night or something.
Araki: Now that you mention it, I think I might've had something like that in mind when I drew it (laugh). But Dio's sort of a composed character that could go either way. He could go with a man or a woman.
Kaneda: Really?! As I thought, my interpretation was correct.... (laugh). So, Dio originally liked Jonathan, right?
Araki: Ah, did he?! (Laugh)
Kaneda: Jonathan Joestar was a man that had everything he didn't, so Dio felt that he wanted to make Jonathan his. That sort of thing. He couldn't allow Jonathan's first kiss to be with Erina, so he did it to Erina himself.
Araki: Uh, it kinda sounds comedic if you're gonna go that far (Laugh).
Kaneda: No, but Dio thought about Jonathan seriously, but at the same time homosexuality was a serious crime in England during that era, so Dio had to hide his desires for such a future deep inside.
Araki: Uh, I guess that could be.
Kaneda: And those feelings he'd suppressed so long finally resulted in him taking over Jonathan's body.
Araki: I see. Well if you look at it at that angle, it gives the story a fresh feel, I suppose. (Laugh)
Kaneda: Dio, someone so dirtied, wanted to profess "I like you" to Jonathan. But he was unable to and then Erina took Jonathan, so through bitter tears at the end he took Jonathan's body. "Now we've finally become one, Jonathan." That sorta thing. If he'd had time to smooth his words over a bit more, he would have said that he wanted to be part of Jonathan's bloodline.
Araki: That kind of sounds like the movie "Purple Moon".
Kaneda: He wanted to become Jonathan. But I think in the end, he lost track of whether he wanted to become Jonathan or he wanted Jonathan to become his. With his noble soul that harbored such sorrow, there were men showing up that loved Dio one after another. Like in Part 3, Vanilla Ice and N'Dour and those guys. Particularly in Part 3, whenever was mentioned, they talk about his almost-transparent white skin and his bewitching charm that made it hard to believe he was a man. Even Avdol felt dizzy the first time (laugh). Even Avdol, that macho guy that liked peeing outside was attracted to Dio. So he really had an aura that attracted all types of men.
Araki: Uh, I guess that's a way of looking at it, too. (Laugh)
Kaneda: ......I'm glad. If you'd said something like "There's no way there was anything like that!" and just cut me off, I don't know what I would've done.... (Laugh)
Araki: There's no way I could write that, but I'll admit that could exist as a sort of hidden meaning. He definitely had some lust somewhere.
Kaneda: Dio's confusion of not being sure himself if he wanted Jonathan's bloodline or wanted his body or wanted his heart is really juicy from a yaoi aspect.
Araki: But someone like Dio would never offer his love 100% to someone.
Kaneda: Speaking of which, he had lots of illegitimate children, didn't he? I feel bad for Ungaro being the only ugly one. (Laugh)
Araki: (Laugh)
Kaneda: So it's a bit different from the sort of love Jonathan and such have, huh?
Araki: Jonathan and the others' love is far deeper than Dio's. They didn't run purely on desire like Dio. Dio will do anything to get what he wants, but he would absolutely never pour 100% of his love into a specific person.
Kaneda: True. It doesn't sound so much like love as it does like stealing. Well, I suppose Father Pucci, pursuing the princess he would never obtain, was really the juiciest character of Part 6.
Araki: Now that you mention it, I think I really did consciously write it that way (Laugh).
Kaneda: He wanted so thoroughly to love Dio more, so when Pucci said the line "I love you as I love God", it was a real thrill. And in response to that, I'm glad Dio said "I was afraid you'd disappear". Vanilla Ice loved Io as well, but he died spinning around in circles like that, so you wanted to have a character express their intense feelings towards Dio in a more open way, huh?
Araki: I think if Dio had lived, it could've gone a bit more in that direction. But he's dead, so all of that will just remain in the realms of imagination.
Kaneda: But there were people like this in Dio's life, so I feel vindicated.
Araki: But I don't think Dio loved Pucci.
Kaneda: I suppose so. I think for Dio, their relationship was casual. There was a sort of feeling like "You don't know anything about my life, so don't start worshipping me like a god." I guess. "I've been the object of pleasure for hundreds of men!"
Araki: He was made the object of their pleasure? (Laugh)[2]
If you could use a Stand power, whose Stand would you choose and what would you want to do with it?
Araki: Well, which one do you choose, Shokotan? Can I call you Shokotan?
Shoko: Of course! He calls me "Shokotan"! I'm so glad. My dream is to marry Jotaro-sama and have a child with him. He'd probably say to me, "Yare Yare Daze" and spit on me. That's my dream. Sorry, the question was about stands, wasn't it.
Araki: So, Star Platinum?
Shoko: I want to receive 'ora ora' from him.
Araki:(Laugh) Hmm...I think I would choose Rohan Kishibe's Stand. I want to know what people are thinking by opening their minds.
Shoko: You work with various people, so that would be useful.
Araki: Yes, I want to discover the unknown sides to them.
Shoko: It's scary though, it seems like you are already able to use that Stand, I guess.
Araki: (Laugh) Well, yeah. And your choice is Star Platinum, right?
Shoko: I want to be beaten up by him.
Araki: I hope your dream will come true.
Shoko:(Laugh) I am a completely bizarre person.
What type of woman does Jotaro-sama like?
Araki: Type of woman? Uh, I don't think he is interested in women that much.
Shoko: I think he would say, "Yare Yare Daze," to a girl like me, right?
Araki: He definitely would. That is his charm.
Shoko: He would also say: "You are annoying."
Araki: (Laugh) That would be great.
Shoko: That's what I want! I want to have a child with him. How can i make him love me?
Araki: He might say that you're annoying, but he'd still love you, I think.
Shoko: I like it! It's tsundere. Does he prefer a girl who's neatly dressed or one with a short skirt?
Araki: Eh, he is more of a straightfoward guy. He will enjoy the time with you, though he might say that you're annoying.
Shoko: Really? Then I will do my best! I think I should go to a disco.
Is Jotaro's school cap a part of his head?
Araki: Yes, it's true.
Shoko: Is it? Why is the cap a part of his head?
Araki: Well, because he never takes off his cap.
Shoko: The cap is part of his body?
Araki: Right. When drawing Jotaro, I felt it was OK to combine his and his hair since he never takes it off.
Shoko: That's a unique idea.
Araki: Indeed. By doing so, Jotaro looks more elegant. I want readers to recognize him from the back, not just his forefront.
Shoko: So he isn't actually wearing a cap. The cap is completely part of his body.
Araki: That is right.
Shoko: Only Araki-sensei could come up with such an idea. It's me who wants to use Rohan's stand to see inside of Araki-Sensei's imagination.
There is a rumor that one scene in the 20th volume of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure predicted the 9/11 attack in New York 11 years before it actually happened. Did Boingo really predict 9/11?
Araki: Yeah, that actually surprised me. I don't know why I drew such a scene.
Shoko: You clearly wrote the word 911 and the laughing plane.
Araki: I don't even know why the plane is laughing.
Shoko: You didn't intentionally draw the scene?
Araki: Well, I don't know. I don't remember. I drew that scene as part of the story, but I don't know what it means. I learned about it recently, but I think it's just a coincidence.
Shoko:Your stand can predict the future. Your Stand predicts the future AND keeps your yourself young. (Laugh)
How can one defeat Star Platinum: The World, the most powerful stand ever?
Araki: Eh...Jotaro can be defeated only by Jotaro himself or by the child of Jotaro and Shokotan.
Shoko: You allow me to have his child? So Jotaro-sama and I have a child and he won't be invincible.
Araki: Correct.
Shoko: That's a great idea!!
Araki: Actually, it's impossible to defeat his stand at the moment. Star Platinum can halt the flow of time, so to defeat him, you need to let time flow again.
Shoko: So you would need to possess a power to control time itself? Sounds great.
What do you keep in mind when drawing pictures in color?
Araki: Well, the combination of colors is important. Like what color should be placed where.
Shoko: What is your favorite color?
Araki: My favorite color? Green...or moss green with some white. The mix of dark moss green and white is my favorite.
Shoko: But the color you actually draw with and the color that is printed are somewhat different right?
Araki: Yeah, you're right. So the important thing is not only the color itself but its adjacent colors.
Shoko: When you were a child, what were you drawing?
Araki: I was drawing things like Hakagata Mitsuru, a character from Kyojin no Hoshi. I'm a big fan of Ikki Kajiwara. I was curious how Joe Yabuki's hair looked like when we saw him from the forefront, right side and left side.
Shoko: Ordinary kids draw Joe only from the right or left sides, but you were not a normal kid.
Araki: (Laugh) Yeah.
What type of woman does Araki-Sensei like?
Araki: EH..? This question is hard to answer.
Shoko: You wife may be watching this show.
Araki: I like a woman like my wife.
Shoko: A good answer. What do you like about your wife?
Araki: As soon as you meet her, you will see that she loves gags. She will often say gags like Shokotan's giza thing (means "super").
Shoko: She uses "giza"?
Araki: When I said to her "Giza Ohayu-su" (Super good morning), she told me I was doing it wrong.
Shoko (Laugh) You wife corrected your usage.[3]
“
Your thoughts about your 25th anniversary as an author?
I think that it was a very quick 25 years. But when I look back at my work...it's kind of like the stuff around the Phantom Blood era is the work of someone else. Yeah, that's what I honestly feel. So, when I read it I can kind of read it objectively; I can read it as though I was a fan.
Do you read back on your old work?
Not very much, but if there's a game or something released like now, I'll read back and think "Ohh, so I was writing this kind of stuff?" Once the stands started coming out, I often forget about some characters. Someone will mention a guy and I'll be like, "Who was that again?" and I'll read back and say "Ohh yeah there was that guy." Kind of like that. The readers know more than me.
Next year will be the 20th anniversary of JoJo.
Well, they let me debut on the New Year's of '82 but that still felt a bit vague to me. I couldn't really imagine myself as a manga artist; it wasn't clear on what kind of manga artist I was going to be. It was like I just was incidentally awarded the Tezuka Award, it wasn't really like I was aiming to win it. So that was kind of when I began training. And...when I look at the other Jump artists manga, they all had their own distinct styles. So the period when I was thinking about what style and what kind of manga I should draw was right before JoJo. I sort of feel that I finally became a pro with JoJo; it was like everything opened up in front of my eyes.
How was "JoJo" born?
I liked movies and at the time Sylvester Stallone and Arnold Schwarzenegger were popular. They're both muscular characters and their bodies are covered in muscle, which made me think to myself "I wonder who the strongest person in the world is?" This question was basically the beginning of the idea of JoJo. Themes such as immortality, seeking life, justice and things that humans innately seek spawned from this and eventually lead to the creation of Part one. So basically stuff to do with immortality and super macho guys and how strong they can get; that was what I was pursuing. Also, I had gone on a trip to Italy about 2 years before that and you may already know but, the art in Italy kind of strives for human beauty. When I saw the original artworks, it made me want to do the same.
The origin of the name "JoJo"
I wonder if it's okay to say this..? Umm, the place I used to hold meetings with the editor was at a local family restaurant in my neighborhood called Jonathan's. We were thinking of making the name "Jonathan" Something, and you know how a name can be two S's like Steven Spielberg? I wanted something like that so I thought "Well if it's Jonathan then it'll start with J so...Joestar should be okay." But that was really adventurous for a Shonen manga because it was taboo to have a foreigner as a main character; it was that kind of era. It was a big adventure so I was really grateful to my editor at the time.
Regarding the birth of the arch nemesis, Dio
He's full of confidence, very arrogant and he's aiming to become a God, or top of the world. Because of this, I used the Italian word, 'Dio,' that is used to refer to a God, as well as the 'Dio' that plays Heavy Metal. I like Heavy Metal and Rock so I used those as a reference to make characters. They're also characters that I created to signify 'black and white' or good and evil.'
Part 1:Phantom Blood
What were your initial ideas?
Back when I started drawing part one, I liked stories that went over several generations like 'East of Eden' and the show 'Roots' that they did on TV. The lead character changes but it kinda continues; it's something like an American periodical drama or periodical novel. And I don't think it was very Jump-like in style but I thought that it might be good to go where nobody else had before.
There's also a manga that I really respect called Babel II by Yokoyama Mitsuteru which has fights that follow rules. I also wanted fights that followed rules in JoJo, so the Hamon was one of those things. Also, you can't see psychic abilities right? Like if you concentrate your mind and something breaks, you can't really see it. But it's a manga so I thought I should be able to draw it and try and make it easy for readers to know what kind of psychic powers they were, which is how I came up with the ripple. It kind of spread from that like how ripples slowly spread, no pun intended. (Slowly is 'jojo' in Japanese)
When I look at him now, I think Jonathan is too much of a good boy. If I was to draw him now, I'd probably show more of the weaknesses of his heart too.
Part 2: Battle Tendency
Was Joseph's personality affected by Part one?
One more thing that you weren't supposed to do in those days was to let your main character die. That was another forbidden act. We had a discussion as to whether that will happen first and it was eventually decided in a meeting that we'd kill the main character. Because of this, I had to drastically change the story's characters and portray events that I didn't show in part one in part two and then similarly portray events I didn't show in part two in part three. That was my plan. I had a story devised up until part three, but because the story convention required Part 2 to be different to Part 1, I created Joseph. He does share similarities to Jonathan though in that he is also a muscle type.
Was it always your plan to revive Dio in Part 3?
I really wanted to draw him being dead for awhile and then coming back to life, but if I was to do that I needed something to happen in between (Part 2). Yeah.
Part 3: Stardust Crusaders
How was the process of changing from Ripples to Stands?
I tried portraying the ripple through pictures and I also tried portraying the psychic ability of Stands with pictures too but, how should I say it... I wanted to have punches from here (away from body). I had a meeting for it where I was asked, "What are you going to do next? You can't use the Ripple anymore." But when I said, "Well, a punch comes out of here (referring to the front of the body) and breaks stuff," they'd be confused and wouldn't understand me. So I was like, how should I say this...? Well, there's a thing like a guardian spirit and...it comes out and attacks." That's how I explained what the new ability would be and nobody would understand what I was on about. I told them that I think I could create alot of characters this way; I could make like a green colored punch or a sharp thing spawn and make them fight. Unlike the ripple, I can do lots of variations. That's how I started with Stands, though I originally thought that people who read it at first wouldn't know what's going on. Stands gave me alot of trouble when it came to explaining them, but I really felt that I could keep inventing new characters and ideas this way forever. It was like I dug up a gold mine. No one else thought it was gold, but I was like "Wow, look what I dug up!"
Part 4: Diamond is Unbreakable
What were your ideas from Part 4 and onwards?
Part 3 was a story that had the shape of a role playing game. It's like a board game where you go here and there. There's a book called "Around the World in 80 Days," which I made Part 3's story with that as an influence. If that's the case, then enemies have to be types that come and attack Jotaro themselves, though they might be waiting for them too. So when i was thinking of ideas I thought of people that were willing to wait in their positions for a long time: like people that live in houses and attack when customers arrive, people with personalities like trapdoor spiders. I had a lot of these ideas left over and so I thought that I could probably use all of them within a single town. There were various incidents back then such as a serial killing incident that sent huge shockwaves across Japan. The feeling of your neighbor possibly being a serial killer was the perfect atmosphere, so I used that idea when positioning lots of Stand users around the town. That's basically how Part 4 was born and you can see how it's different from part 3. Making Part 3 different to Part 2, and making Part 4 different to part 3...is the way JoJo was made.
Up until Part 3, the setting was in an imaginary, mythical kind of world but for Part 4 I drew an everyday world so I feel more closeness to Josuke, which is why I like him the most. I found it really fun to write, it was like he became a friend of sorts. Jotaro, however, is someone that you admire, like a hero from a mythical tale. But Josuke seems more like a friend or a senior.
Josuke is supposed to be the child of a lover but...?
Yes, he is. If I could write more of Part 4, I'd like to explore that more specifically. You would probably develop some complicated ways of thinking if you were a child of a lover and Josuke was also meeting his dad for the first time in a while, so I'd like to write more in depth about that. If I had the opportunity to write that, I would really like to. Part 4 isn't really finished yet. If I decided to continue it, I could as much as I want.
Part 5: Vento Aureo
Why did you make the hero Dio's son?
Oh yes right. In part 5, he's not really a blood relative...well kind of. I find great importance in the upbringing and background of the characters. Stuff like what kind of place they were born, and what their parents were like. If I know that then it makes it easier to understand and write. That's what I do it for, so I find bloodlines very important. It might seem like a bit of a stretch, but that's how Part 5 started. During Part 4, the editor said to me, "Are you able to draw sadness?" But life is a sad thing though isn't it? He asked me if I could draw that, and initially I said that it wasn't really my style but during Part 5, I suddenly felt to urge to draw just that. Like the sadness of being ostracized by society but still having a sense of justice. That was what I tearfully wrote for Vento Aureo.
Part 6: Stone Ocean
You once said that you can't draw females.
Back then, it was an era when it was unthinkable to have a female character taking punches and in JoJo, arms can go flying if you're not careful. I felt that I wasn't able to draw that with female characters and the readers wouldn't be able to keep up. As I grew older, the difference between genders became less important, and I started to feel that I could actually draw a tough female. What I came up with was Stone Ocean, whose takes place in a prison setting.
About the end of Part Six
The last boss in JoJo has to be made incredibly strong. And I already made Dio stop time, so I figured the readers wouldn't be happy unless I thought of something even stronger. That factor had become a bubble-like situation and so I thought what would happen if you sped up time really fast, and ended up going full circle. Your brain goes strange when you think about infinity.
What are your thoughts regarding time?
It's mysterious isn't it? If you think about time, it feels mysterious and possibly the ultimate power if you could control it. My thought process involved coming up with this ultimate power and then thinking up how on earth you'd defeat it. Even while writing JoJo I myself often thought, "Oh...they're going to lose this one, they can't possibly win." But thinking about how it will be done is how I go about making this, so even now I still think about the question from Part 1, "Who is the strongest person in the world." I find that there's a great deal of romance there.
Manga Artist Araki HiroHiko
About drawing old characters.
I really find it hard being asked to draw previous characters. I wonder why that is..? I just get really tired. First, I have to try and draw the essence of my older style and then I have to fuse it with my current style, which made drawing the cover of this game really tiring. Though I did end up drawing it anyways after telling them that I can't draw older characters.
Second, artwork always changes; for example, I said before that muscular characters were really popular in the 80's but that wasn't really the case anymore in the 90's. I think it's strange to keep drawing muscular people if that's the case. So when I started on a new chapter back then I made Giorno Giovanna quite thin to be like a normal sized person. From around the time of Josuke, I decided to change from a mythical kind of person to a more ordinary size. That's the kind of way that artwork changes. Well, that's what I think. Also, I don't know about my art getting better. You could say that I was bad at the beginning though. I don't really try to keep it like my older styles; they're pictures that I've drawn in a classical kind of method, so I don't really mind if it changes.
About the game's cover
Well I first imaged it as having the ripple, but I was requested to have Dio and Jonathan fighting with the stone mask but I basically tried to bring the stone mask to the front more. The stone mask is like the game's emblem or the game's mark, so I put water and ripples over the background to lessen its impact. Usually, the main character is right at the front for package illustrations but I kind of made it the opposite of that.
About the poses.
The poses are influenced from Italian sculptures. I really like the way the bodies are twisted and it makes me want to turn them into a drawing. Also, you might not understand unless you're a person that draws, but the pelvis moves up and down and that's what I find fun. Like doing this... and stuff like if you move your wrist than you move up here. (Hand gestures) It's fun to draw while you theorize about that. Well for example, I'll show you here...If you put weight down on your right leg like this, your left shoulder drops and stuff. Or if you raise this hip, you go like this; it all moves oppositely. If you raise one hip then a shoulder goes down. If you concentrate on it you'll notice it, I found that about the human body very interesting and I really find it fun putting that into a drawing.
Also, it's not related but I actually enjoy drawing skin getting peeled. So I had alot of fun when drawing Koichi turning into a book. Not because it's grotesque but I think it's because I have to theorize what it might be like. It's strange. Also, things like what would happen if you bend a finger this way. You can make it possible by drawing. I think those are the kind of things I like, though I like drawing the poses too.
About the unique 'sound words'.
Oh, right. They're influenced from horror movies and rock music. In progressive rock and horror music, they use synthesizers and an instrument called a mellotron and sometimes I really want the tinkly kind of sound it produces for some scenes. Also stuff like "Chwween" and "Kyun Kyun Kyun!" You know how they often have noises like that in horror moves? I get the feeling of wanting those in my work. So I just write them out using letters and they naturally become the sound words I use, and I'm not really conscious of it.
Is the model of Kishibe Rohan yourself?
Everyone I meet for the first time thinks that I'll be like Rohan, so it's a bit of nuisance. I once thought about just acting like that character but that is something I aspire instead and I'm sorry if I break anyone's dreams, but I'm not really like that. Everyone comes into my house a little bit frightened. Sorry, but I'll use this to change my image now.
Do you lick spiders like Rohan?
Well, I do sometimes try eating some unusual things. If they tell me that it's edible cooking then I'll eat it, but... (Laughs)
Themes Embedded in Araki's Work
The theme of JoJo that continues for 20 years?
To not negate human beings. What I mean by that is is to have positive thinking characters that don't stress about things going wrong. They're not allowed to stress. They believe strongly in what they do. Even if its a bad guy doing bad things, those actions are very important to him and he'll use that to move one step forward. Then in response, the hero comes to defeat that. When they both step out forwards they'll then conflict. That's what I find interesting. I don't think it's interesting as a Shonen manga if the hero feels some sort of empathy for the villain. For example, with the character Yoshikage Kira, he's a serial killer but I think that he had his own proper reasons for doing so, such as the poor environment of his childhood, his relationship with his mother and his father always ignoring him. But if I write that you start to feel sorry for Kira, and so despite being such a horrible villain, when Josuke fights him, I think he'll kind of feel sorry for him. But then Kira says that he's fine being that way and moves one step up. That's what I like. That's the reason why I really like Kira. Although he may have had a bad childhood and turned into a serial killer, I always hope that he tries his best at being one. I can't really say that out loud much though. I'm secretly a fan of his. So living with a postive outlook like that is the theme of JoJo. It's a 'celebration of humanity.' To make humans positive. There may be conflicts because of that but that sort of thing is a theme.
Will that remain to be the theme?
Yes, probably. I said this before but I think that if the villains weak, it'll definitely be a boring story. They may be that way in real life but its better if its not in a manga like this. Yes...so I don't think it'll change.
A finale message to the fans
JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Phantom Blood is a piece that I created 20 years ago and it really feels nostalgic. I'm really thankful that it has been adapted like this after 20 years.I find it more special than a recent and currently serialized one being adapted because it makes me think that it really has been appreciated for 20 years. So I would really like to express my gratitude and say thank you very much. I hope you really enjoy it. I've properly checked the game myself and I've given it my guarantee.[4]
”
Note: Naokatsu Tsuda is the creative director in charge of David Production's enthusiastic anime adaptation of the iconic JoJo's Bizarre Adventure manga. This is an interview for Mr. Tsuda at Anime Expo, Los Angeles on July 4 2015 by Anime News Network.
ANN: What is the difference between your role as director and Kenichi Suzuki's role as "series director," as far as how things are managed?
Naokatsu Tsuda: The best way to think of it is not as co-directors, but one as the executive director and one as the actual director.
So he's in more of a producer position and you are the creative director?
We're both creative, but I have final say in everything.
How were you approached about directing a JoJo's television series and what was your reaction?
So, the story starts off with me being an employee at our production company, David Production. My previous work was directing Inu X Boku Secret Service and our Vice President, a man by the name of Kajita, asked me, "You like JoJo?" And I said "Yes!" And he said, "Okay, you're directing JoJo." That's it! Very easy.
When looking at the material, did you feel that there was much adaptation that needed to be made for language and references, since it is over twenty years old, or did you feel that it was timeless and you didn't have to change much?
The main adaptation needed for a modern audience would be in the visuals. If you look at the original JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, the lines are very detailed and I question if a modern viewer would be able to relate to these details. Also, we do need to simplify the lines for animation. So simplifying the lines was something we definitely prioritized. But the JoJo's graphic novels, over the years, have become something of an internet meme, or at least they are the source of a lot of internet memes. One thing we can do today that wouldn't have been possible 20 years ago is pick up on already established memes and see how we can pull those into the anime. Many parts of the series are already finished, so we are in a unique position today where we can do a wholesale retrospective on them. Also, modern audiences have a preference for higher-paced dialogue, so that's also different today from how it would've been adapted back then.
That's very interesting to hear about the meme culture of JoJo's. So you were aware of that stuff going in and you consciously said, "Oh we have to get this right, we have to make this feel classic for fans of the manga?"
Yes, in fact that was fully intended. We wanted to make a show where a fan could watch the animated episode and then go back to the graphic novel and see that their idea of JoJo was faithfully animated. We wanted to make something that could be shared as a new source of fan memes, and something where everyone's idea of JoJo could come to life through it.
One of my favorite things about JoJo's is the incredible sound design and music work on this show, both the soundtrack and the use of sound effects visually is very powerful. I feel like viewers can listen to this show and understand the story almost as well as seeing it. What was your philosophy going into the music and sound effects for the series?
The written words that show up in JoJo's is something that we call a "word effect." This comes directly from the manga, where if you look directly at the panel, the written sound effects are an integral part of the layout. Usually, when you animate a graphic novel, all those sound effects would be taken out, but that also changes the visual layout of the panel in translation to the screen. Now when you look at streaming culture today in Japan, especially when you look at websites such as Niconico, all the users just paste up their text reactions as part of the video stream, and that's part of the actual fan culture. My takeaway from that was younger audiences of today don't actually have any problem seeing written sound effects onscreen. So rather than changing the original manga layout, we wanted to incorporate that into the anime as well and use word effects in choice places for favorite lines and favorite sounds, perhaps sound effects that the viewer might want to shout out along with the show. So it's just thinking about things backwards and then making them work out. I don't think you actually need to be able to read the text, because it's more of a visual element than a language thing.
For the music, I really wanted to incorporate film-style music rather than something that resembled a variety show. When you use music in film, it's often set to a specific character or emotion or scene. In the first two parts of Jojo's, the music is really set to the scene and only once in a while is it set to the emotions of the moment. Part 1 takes place in 19th century England, which isn't exactly a place anyone has first-hand experience living through. So we used the music to establish a sense of history and location and period that we can relate to. Then we skip over to Part 2, which takes place in Art Deco America. So we had to establish something more stylish and pop in tone there. Since there's a graphic visual difference between Part 1 and Part 2, we wanted the audience to be transported 50 years forward through the music as well as the visuals.
What was the process for choosing the ending theme songs like "Roundabout" and "Walk Like an Egyptian?" Is this a tradition that you want to continue in future parts?
Well, those came from the author of the original graphic novel, Hirohiko Araki. They're all songs that he was listening to back when he was drawing the individual parts. Mr. Araki only listens to Western music because he doesn't understand English, so none of the lyrics come across to him as language, but as pure sound. So we got a list of these songs that he was listening to back when he was writing each part, and we chose songs for the closing animation based on which ones Warner was able to secure the rights for. It was up to Warner to actually do the negotiating. So if there is an anime production of the next part, we'll probably go by the same process. Traditionally, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure has been a gateway to learn about Western music for Japanese readers. For American fans, a lot of the music and names featured in JoJo's are more an acknowledgement of familiar artists, but this is also cause for Warner to be engaged in a lot of negotiations to secure those rights.
Yes, the names of these characters are changed in the official subtitles for American viewers. Vanilla Ice becomes Cool Ice, Oingo Boingo becomes Zenyatta Mondatta, and so on. The fans always know the real names, so they see that and sort of laugh at it. They feel like "what, are they afraid of lawyers?" How do you feel about American audiences being given changed names?
Well, I do think someone may have tried to err on the sensitive side of things in translation. When you look at characters like Oingo and Boingo, if the musical artist of the same name wasn't happy with the idea of being depicted as such comical characters, perhaps erring on the sensitive side might have been the right decision.
On that note, where did the Oingo Boingo Brothers song come from? It was a very fun surprise!
Part 3, Stardust Crusaders, is split into two halves for television airing. At the time, the music producer at Warner, Mr. Oomori, had asked if there was any scene-specific music that I wanted to have in the series. You might be familiar with a specific practice in Japanese animation where episode one and episode three are very important for a show's production. If episode one doesn't execute well, a lot of viewers will write off the show and never watch it. And you also need to have a new development or twist take place in episode three, or more established viewers will abandon the show. It's not such an issue with episode four onwards, but that's the unfortunately reality of the industry right now. The Oingo Boingo episode in question is actually episode three of Stardust Crusaders' second half, so we knew we had to make it stand out. Boingo is an enemy who uses manga as their gimmick, so for the ending we thought this could be the first and only instance of a character song. I thought it would be something that the viewers would be very happy to see. So I went to producer Oomori, he greenlit it, and the Oingo Boingo Brothers happened.
And the Hol Horse Boingo Combo as well! Now do you have a favorite Joestar or a favorite character? Not just in the three parts that are animated, but from any of it?
Well, since I just finished working on Stardust Crusaders, I'm most sympathetic to Jotaro. In part 4, my favorite is still Jotaro. As a high school reader of the manga, my favorite Joestar was… well, it's actually questionable if he's from the Joestar family, but he's the main character from part 5, Giorno Giovanna. He's actually Dio's child, but he inherits a very large portion of the Joestar family spirit.
You mentioned that the manga's art could be difficult to adapt to animation. What were your thoughts on adapting the manga's striking color design in a way that wouldn't be too overwhelming?
One thing that makes anime different is that once you establish the color setting, you can't change it, whereas there's no set color for a lot of things in the JoJo's graphic novel. Once we established the color setting inside the anime, we knew there might be a lot of fans who would object to the choice of colors. As a JoJo fan myself, I do really understand the kinds of things they would object to. So we decided on scene-specific coloring, so that the "set color" could still change depending on the specifics of the scene. Since the graphic novel doesn't actually have set colors for a lot of things, I think that was one way to take advantage of its style, while creating something that would be acceptable to fans.
One last question: JoJo's is filled with great moments of elation, and it must be exciting for the voice cast to do that sort of thing. What was the most powerful moment for you, vocally?
There's far too many to mention, but if I were to choose one, it would be the final episode of Stardust Crusaders, where Jotaro and Dio are having their showdown, and it is the battle of ORAORA and MUDAMUDA.
I knew the story, so I knew it was coming, but I was still surprised when Dio shouted "ROAD ROLLER!"
I'm very happy to hear that.[5]
Renowned artist and ageless wunderkind Hirohiko Araki (Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, Baoh, Steel Ball Run) recently gave a lecture at Tokai Junior & High School in Nagoya City, Aichi Prefecture, as part of their Saturday Program series, as transcribed/compiled by @JOJO, Japan's premier site for Jojo-related news. Due to its length this entry will be broken into 2 parts.
The lecture hall was filled to its 1,500 person capacity. There were so many people that there was a delay while people moved in and out of the hall, and the lecture began 15 minutes later than planned, at 12:45.
[12:45: The Lecture Hall]
After a student MC introduces Mr. Araki and his body of work, he abruptly pops up on stage, at which time the hall erupts into a deafening round of applause. Mr. Araki, quite nervous at the reception, immediately has a slip of the tongue, saying "I'm a little honored to meet all of you today." "I'm a little, no quite messed up. I feel like I've met an entire lifetime's worth of people today." Although he claims that he is not a performer, and asks not to expect laughs, he claims "I'm just going to meander along today," scoring some unintentional laughs.
[Reason For Accepting The Invitation]
Araki, who marks his 25th year as a manga artist this year, used to dislike (from well over a decade ago) being told "I used to read your comics!" "I was a fan when I was young!" etc, since it stirred fears within him that perhaps he was getting old, and becoming irrelevant. But in the past 5 years or so, he has had a gradual change of heart, and has begun to enjoy and appreciate the accolades he gets, especially from older people and people in esteemed positions in society. Also, when he was younger he may have been writing manga to benefit himself and his publisher's bottom line, but now he has a slightly different point of view and wants to give back to people, especially younger people. That's when he got an invitation from Saturday Program, and, figuring it would probably just be a classroom of 30-40 people, he said "sure, I'll do it." However, he arrived today to this circus, and thought, "this wasn't what I signed up for." (audience bursts into laugher)
[Motives For Drawing Manga, Family, Days of Youth]
Young Araki lived with his father, an office worker, his mother, a stay-at-home mom, and younger identical twin sisters. Those sisters were quite a handful: for example, if there were 3 snacks, the sisters, upon arriving home first, would eat all 3, and then proceed to conceal any traces of evidence. Growing up, young Araki, thinking that there weren't any snacks, "would think 'man, I'm hungry' and go chew on something like a really old piece of kamaboko." (audience bursts into laughter). And when his sisters' evil doings came to light, a fight would erupt; and this would occur on a daily basis. (yet more laughter) He would often feel such a sense of exclusion and ill-will towards his sisters that he didn't want to come home. He used to find relief in spending time along in his room, reading classic manga from the 70's and his father's collection of art books, which he supposes was his motive for drawing manga. He figures that had he not started drawing manga, he "might have gotten out of hand and killed my sisters." (laughter)
[Days of Submissions and Rejections]
He attended a prep school through junior high and high school, but a friend complimented him on the manga he drew (apparently he drew his first manga while he was in 4th grade), which made him think that if his very first fan thought he was good, he might want to become a manga artist. So, he began to secretly draw manga when his parents were not looking. He first began submitting his work during his first year of high school; however, all of his submissions were rejected. At the same time, a rash of artists who were the same age (Yudetamago) or younger than him (Masakazu Katsura) continued to make big splashes with their debut. But Mr. Araki could not understand why he was rejected, and decided to finish off a submission on an all-nighter and go on a 4-hour trip to pay a visit to the editors in Tokyo, and to ask them for an explanation. At first he intended to visit Shogakukan, which published Shonen Sunday, but he was intimidated by the size of their building, and decided to take his submission into the smaller Shueisha building next door. It was noon when he visited, but one rookie editor (about 6'2", or 185cm, tall) happened to be there, so he showed him his work. However, the editor, after reading the first page, promptly quipped "your white-out's leaked (you haven't fixed it)": he was criticized every time the editor flipped through each page; Mr. Araki, already exhausted from having been up all night, felt like he was going to pass out. However, after he was finished, he was told that it might be good, and was immediately told to fix it up for the Tezuka Awards in 5 days. That submission was "Buso Poker (Armed Poker)", which won was the runner-up prize at the Tezuka Awards.
[The Jump Editors At The Time Were Really Scary]
At the time, Mr. Torishima (Akira Toriyama's editor, and inspiration for the Dr. Slump character Dr. Mashirito) would take submissions out of their envelopes, glance at the folder, promptly go "I don't want to see this style!" and order a rewrite. Apparently, he wanted people to draw in such a way that looking at the cover was enough to make people want to read the manga. The editorial department as a whole was always on edge at the time. But he also mentioned in the latter half of his lecture that manga editors were like golf caddies; they provided objective information like "why don't you hit this way" or "you're X meters away from the green" and that he appreciated them. He also said that people who wanted to become manga artists had to get along with editors.
[Drawing Manga, Araki-Style Part (1): 10 Meters]
Drawing styles which are so distinctive that you can look at a person from 10 meters away and go, "oh hey, he's reading that manga" are incredible: Araki managed to make his debut, but didn't feel like he had that unique style. And so from 1981 onwards he started thinking about how he could achieve that distinctive style, something that would make people think "oh, that's him!"
[Drawing Manga, Araki-Style Part (2): The World's Most Simple Drawing]
(Showing a blank piece of paper) If you told your art teacher "this is a drawing of 'snow" he would be very upset at you, but in manga you could say this was "the flash from a nuclear bomb" or "my soul is barren" and that would fly. And here Mr. Araki drops a bomb: "there are people who get paid for stuff like this." (audience bursts into laughter) "It's amazing, really. You know, like....I guess I could get in trouble for mentioning names." (more laughter) [note: probably in reference to Shaman King, which printed a blank 2-page pullout to supposedly express an "incredible move"] "And coloring the page all black, and saying "he went to hell." Sort of like in the last few chapters of Death Note." (audience goes into hysterical laughter, applause) Mr. Araki tried to patch things up by claiming that he was joking, but could not help further mentioning how much per page said-artists were probably paid for those particular pages.
[Drawing Manga, Araki-Style Part (3): The Ultimate Character]
Araki introduces modern abstract art such as Barnett Newman's (gallery/wiki) drawing of an orange square on a piece of canvas, Agness Martin's drawing of nothing but a pencil line on white canvas etc. And then he drew the following, calling it the ultimate simple, ideal character in manga anybody could draw:
oh noes, we're gonna get sued!
"I might get in trouble for displaying this in public, so." (audience bursts into laughter)
He also introduced things like the smiley face and Morizo and Kiccoro (Mr. Araki thought that Akira Toriyama had designed them), and explained that he respected these types of drawings that anybody could recognize, and that it was what he aspired for. "It's incredible. It's the ultimate style."
[Drawing Manga, Araki-Style Part (4): Gauguin]
img img
Gaugin's (wiki) art, while having depth, also did things like contain certain colors within certain areas, paint the ground pink and the trees blue etc. Araki loved Gauguin's art ever since he was a child, and has been deeply influenced by him. When Jojo became an OVA, one of the animators asked Araki "what color if Jotaro?" however Araki had no such concept. He colors everything based on calculation. For example, in Volume 54 Giorno's clothes are pink, but in Volume 63 they are blue. Also, regarding the color cover illustration, he explains that placing the color blue beside pink exudes more power. He says that he gets his inspiration from 80's art, shading techniques in Western art, classical paintings and gets inspiration for his various poses from sculptures. All of this research, blended with Araki's own personality, result in Jojo's art style.
[Drawing Manga, Araki-Style Part (5): Aim & Direction]
(Araki shows a diagram mapping the world of manga, broken into 4 quadrants with the X-axis labeled "Using classical methods to portray reality" and "Impressionist markings and symbolic fantasy" and the Y-axis labeled "Treating introspective themes such as inner emotions as the central focus" and "Putting weight on the plot structure. "Suspense" and "creating a sense of the world")
If you don't think about "where you stand," you won't have any sense of direction even after you become a mangaka, wandering from idea to idea, not knowing what you want to write about and ending up becoming one of those people who asks their editor "what should I write?" In the case of Jojo, Araki is trying to pursue reality by portraying things with classical methodology, but he gives precedence to emotion and inner thought over plot structure, trying to portray the protagonists' destiny, so he ends up in the bottom-left quadrant.
[Drawing Manga, Araki-Style Part (6): The Theme is "Mystery"]
Araki was fascinated by mysteries ever since he was a child, fantasized about deserted islands and believed that King Kong and Nessie existed, and so writes his manga with "mystery" as the central theme. In Jojo, Araki wondered what "superpowers" really were, and if he could portray "energy" itself, which lead to Parts 1&2, and the Stands in Part 3, which were like guardians who could "destroy boulders and stuff." They would "stand" by their master and would be called "stands." Apparently Part 3 began immediately after Part 2 with no interval in between.
[Drawing Manga, Araki-Style Part (7): Like an RPG or Board Game]
At the time, the "pyramid (tournament) formula" (A would fight & defeat B, then fight stronger character C, and on and on) was all the craze in Shonen Jump. But, Araki wondered, how strong could they get? Wouldn't the entire system collapse as soon as you reached the top, much like the economic bubble of the 80's in Japan? It wasn't like there could be an infinite number of levels of strength. So, he decided to create an RPG/board game-style system where characters traveled to different places to fight enemies, as seen in Jojo Part 3, where the protagonists traveled across Egypt while battling enemies
Araki's lecture ended here and proceeded to a Q&A with students, which may or may not be posted here as Part 3.
[13:38: Araki-sensei's Talk Ends Here]
From now on the lecture will be a discussion between Araki-sensei and the students of Tokai Junior & High School. Since there were a lot of questions, they'll be summarized and presented together in a certain order.
[Question for Araki-sensei! (1): "When You Were Young, What Was Your Source of Inspiration?"]
"Manga, movies... I didn't have any collections; neither did I have any 'solid' objects like plastic models. I enjoyed drawing pictures. I was a boy who wanted to live in a world of fantasy with movies and novels.
(When asked what influenced his works) "After achieving success, respecting my sempai was the most important thing for me. It all started with Da Vinci - reading about such people was very important for me. I learned about the things they mastered, and through their discoveries, I found my own answer.
As for manga I read when I was a boy, the most significant one was Kajiwara Ikki/Nagayasu Takumi's Ai to Makoto (Love and Truth), the scene where the protagonist is stabbed by a knife... although the manga ended in the next issue (a January New Year's double issue), it was still a rather extraordinary experience for me. When I was in middle school, I joined the kendo club because of Tetsuya Chiba's kendo manga Ore wa Teppei (I'm Teppei)."
[Question for Araki-sensei! (2): "The Model for Morioh Town, Sendai City"]
- Morioh Town is a town in JoJo, while Sendai is Araki's hometown.
"Sendai, when I was a kid, was an old and historical city. Since the '80s, construction began on a new residential district. The new houses were beautiful, but strangers from who-knows-where were scary, and those personal experiences have been tied together with the town itself."
"Well, I don't think there are any homicidal maniacs, but..." (Everyone starts a roar of laughter). Of course, Araki-sensei likes his hometown very much, but he was intimidated by the rapid increase in stragers, maybe Morioh Town was made based on his "disdain" of that situation. Of course, using the real name of the city in his manga may anger people, so Araki-sensei changed the name to something else.
- Also refer to Kahoku Shinpou: Araki Hirohiko's "Buried Gold Requires Daily Expedition" and Araki Hirohiko's talk-essay "My manga are the 'outcries of my heart'"
[Question for Araki-sensei! (3): "What About Love and Passion?"]
Although he went a boy's school, he had a girlfriend. "There's not much to add, since it's what causes the most problems in today's relationships" (everyone starts a roar of laughter).
- By the way, Araki-sensei is married, and according to an interview from "Weekly Shounen []", Araki met his first love during his first year in high school, and his preference for the opposite was "a woman who is not ladylike."
[Question for Araki-sensei! (4): "What Model Did You Base Your Protagonists On?"]
"Eeeeh?" Araki-sensei appears worried. There was no model, but there were influences from "muscle movies" such as "Rambo" and "Terminator." Jotaro Kujo (a character from JoJo) feels like Clint Eastwood: he doesn't run, his movements are minimal and he's a silent person. "On the other hand, the Stands are fast." The personalities of protagonists' from each part are different. After drawing Part I, I wanted to do something I haven't done before. (1st Part: Serious --> 2nd Part: A crazy person)
[Question for Araki-sensei! (5): "Airin = Gorgeous★Airin?"]
What is the relationship between Airin of Gorgeous★Airin and the Airin who made his appearance in the last part of "JoJo 6" (Stone Ocean Volume 17)?
"I was just having a good time, there is no deep meaning behind it, I'm sorry." (Everyone laughs).
[Question for Araki-sensei! (6): "About the Ability of 'Time'"]
The most powerful technique: "Time". Stopping it, returning to the past, watching the future... if there were people who can control such a thing, they'd be invincible. For a main character with powers that aren't invincible, I want to have people wonder how such a character could win. The ability to control physical things, such as gravity, is also very powerful.
From Araki Hirohiko/Shibasaki Tomoka's Osaka University of Arts, College Manga Vol. 4:
- Araki: About time, when I think about it, it's incredibly powerful. You can do things like repeating the same morning over and over, stopping time while jumping, and the people who become visible only at a particular time, etc. But if I used that concept every time, someone would say: "Is JoJo only about 'time'?" So... (laughs).
- Shibasaki: Is it because you're interested in the representation of time?
- Araki: it's an interesting and powerful concept. To what extent is it changing? Is the other side of the earth being affected by it as well? And things like that.
- Shibasaki: What is the maximum affected range when time is stopped?
- Araki: All the way out into space. Speaking of which, what kind of energy would that be?
[Question for Araki-sensei! (7): "Joseph Joestar"]
And now the 'forbidden question': "Why, as an old man, is Joseph such a lustful man?" "Although JoJo was a story that ended naturally after Part 3, I asked myself: 'should I draw a 4th part? There shouldn't be anymore Jojo!'" (Everyone laughs). Since I didn't know what would happen in the future, even though I wanted to keep his personality, the personality did match up with his age (Joestar is an old man in Part 4).
[Question for Araki-sensei! (8): "Lineage"]
When asked about the reason why he's only focusing on the story of the "Joestar family", according to Araki, going back, back, way back, all the way to the origin of the family lineage, his character's lineage gives him a feeling of pride - the wonder and the mystery that exists within the "lineage". "I put more importance on such things than others (said with a serious tone).
[Question for Araki-sensei! (9): "If You Can Describe Manga in A Single Word"]
Troubled by the question, Araki replied: "my combined feeling would be 'the salvation of the heart'? I think it's very important."
[Question for Araki-sensei! (10): "Western music and its influence"]
Using names from Western music to name his characters and "Stands" is a "simple hobby" for Araki. It's also a way to pay his respect towards rock artists. "But the fact that nowadays there aren't many names of bands to use is becoming a problem". (Everyone starts a roar of laughs). The imitative sounds of Jojo is also influenced by music (This was said on "Weekly Shounen []"as well). While on the subject, according to SOUL'd OUT, their music is influenced by JoJo. So while "JoJo" is influenced by Rock, it is also influencing "Rock"!
[Question for Araki-sensei! (11): "About the Change in Design"]
When asked about his designs that continue to change, Araki replied that since he's not trying to draw using classical techniques, the designs won't be the same, and usually experience rapid changes. "I'm not concerned about the old drawings (assertion)." Though the readers may get confused, I wonder if they will forgive me".
- It has also being reported that in Hirohiko Araki's collection of short stories Gorgeous★Airin, the illustration of Airin that was drawn for Ultra Jump in 2003, was originally a character drawn in 1985 as an entirely different person. At that time, the comment from UJ PRESS was: "I can't draw in my old style anymore".
[Question for Araki-sensei! (12): "You Stopped Drawing Your Self-Portrait"]
Often fan letters would ask: "Please take out that character from the manga", but since the character is almost complete, I don't want to take it out, and that is all. Although "Baoh the Visitor" ended as though it will later continue, but...
[Question for Araki-sensei! (13): "If you can describe JoJo in a single word"]
To a question that he hates to answer, Araki-sensei's answer was: "'The enigma of human beings', it's something I wanted to draw". As a human who works with a theme that will last for an eternity, that's all. Moreover, the manga is also being drawn for people who have committed crimes, it will make them think: "How did I become like this? Is there a meaning in this existence?" It's a "eulogy of human".
[Conclusion]
And so the time has come, the last words from the moderator, and the falling of the curtain. The clock says it is 2:05 PM on June 24th, 2006. An event of about 1 hour and 20 minutes long, but to Araki's fans, without a doubt it was a "golden personal experience." Escorted by applause heavy as thunder, Araki-sensei disappeared behind the curtain with a smile on his face.
- End -
Translated by Aldo[6]
Interviewer: I'm so nervous today....
Araki: Oh, don't worry. I not here to make anyone nervous today, my goal is to be healing others:) Really, please don't be nervous.
I: Thank You!
A: Oh no, Thank you.
Part1: Hirohiko Araki, Road to becoming a Mangaka
I: Well my first question is, what kind of 22 year old were you, and what was your life like after graduating from high school?
A: Um... Well, it was the 70's. The mangakas at that time were a generation after people like Tezuka-sensei, Akatsuka-sensei, and Fujiko-sensei. And it was a time when the genre of manga really diversified. Not only manga, but music too, like jazz crossing over to rock music. I spent my teen during a time when everything was fusing together, so I kind of caught the momentum of that, and then Yudetamago-sensei, who was the same age as me debuted when we were about 16 or 17. Then I realized that I can't be wasting time. Of course I studied too, but as a student, I also was really interested in art, like manga, music, film, and fine arts. I really aspired foreign countries as well.
I: How old were you when you became interested in such things?
A: Well, from around high school, or maybe even middle school... Then I dreamed of being a mangaka or have a job relating to that.
I: So, you actually read Yudetamago-sensei's works?
A: Read it, and, well, there were many mangakas, and I couldn't do anything about that, but I felt like I had to something myself.
I: Interesting, so that was your turning point in life?
A: Probably... It may overlap with some questions later but can I keep going on?
I: Yes! Please, go ahead.
A: Well, how should I put it... You know how you learn from your elders? Back then was a time when doing the same thing as your elder was really looked down at. You had to do something different. If there were several paths that your elder paved, it was like finding somewhere in between that no one else has gone before. Kind of like that.
I: So it was about doing something different?
A: Well, you had to kind of make sure not to mimic anyone, yeah. It wasn't necessarily about going your own way, but learning from your elders and not stepping in their footsteps. You were looked down if you ever stepped in it. People would say “you're just doing the same thing, just coping!” or something, and look at you with scornful eyes.
I: What did people actually say towards your works?
A: Like, “This looks looks that,” or “thats story development is identical to so-and-so,”
I: At times like that, where did you get inspiration to paved your own way?
A: Um... so, I had influences from my favorite mangakas, but also came up with my own things, or added on to it. Draw an area that hasn't been explored by others... and like that, for example, I now think theres a theory, and following a “theory of hit” makes you feel like you have to do something that sells. I didn't think of that at all, so I guess I was pure in a sense, yeah.
I: Not a manga only for the sake of selling?
A: Its about drawing something that's never been drawn.
I: Interesting. This gets a little personal, but going to art school, I really understand what you mean. You take a class with a teacher and you get drawn towards your teachers style, but are punished if you fully adopt that style.
A: Yeah, its pretty much like that, but more intense with a strong 70's feel to it
Part 2: What it feels like after becoming a Mangaka
I: So, what was it like to actually become a mangaka?
A: Well, I was worried sick and couldn't sleep during earlier works, and even when starting JoJo. I wasn't sure if it was alright.
I: And did you have a strong support, someone backing you up?
A: Ahh, yeah. In my case, I based my works on works of art from the past that I felt sure, and things that were done by people I was sure about, so even if someone saids something bad or negative, I always was able to feel sure. And the told me that I had to be bold if I wanted a serialized series. Failing a serialized series is losing to yourself, so I think it works out well for an optimistic person.
I: Do you think most mangakas are optimists?
A: I think people who can keep doing it are like that. More like someone confident than an optimist. Many of them have absolute confidence in themselves. Many seems like they go beyond narcissism. So, you don't want to cripple their pride, you have to nurture it:) They're probably simpletons:) Out in the real world, you have to be careful not to be scolded for that.
Part 3: Araki's Manga-ism
I: Manga has really infiltrated our society nowadays, what does “manga” mean to you?
A: Like I said earlier, its about the beauty of the art and training your “eyes for judging beauty.” Its kind of like a training. Um... I'm drawing and sometimes fall into meditation, and skip time. Kind of like that.
I: How do you feel about other mangas and works?
A: Well, yeah, I like some of them, but I'd also like to recognize those I'm not sure whats fun or interesting about them. Maybe not recognizing them, but try to think while I read them. Not only in manga but also in films, the kind of story that I don't feel interesting is when the protagonist doesn't have a reason to progress. For example, there are some that are negative towards fighting, and I personally think thats a no-no. So, if theres going to be war, it should be like “Yeah! I love war!” Thats an extreme example, but fighting in war while denying war I'd say is negative story-wise. If the is a “zero,” the denial makes it a “negative.” But fighting for one's own satisfaction, or fighting war to save one's mother, that kind of elements that makes the story “positive” is really interesting. The kinds of film fit in that. And because they fit in, I analyze from there. So, if you like “negative,” and gather a lot of “negative,” you start compiling those kinds of movies, but there are many perspectives, so there's not really a right or wrong direction. Its up to your own preference.
I: So the kind of things you're not interested are things that are negative.
A: Yeah. I can't get psyched watching or writing things like that.
Part 4: Relaxing, Araki style
I: You have been doing manga for a long time. I've heard in other interviews that you never miss an due date, and we see you as always being on schedule. Do you ever have trouble coming up with new ideas?
A: Its not really about the lack of ideas, but the scariest thing is the lack of the will to draw. Lack of idea is really losing the will to create. If you're willing to write, you will get ideas, so you shouldn't be afraid of the lack of ideas. Just keep putting things out there, and save nothing. Feeling like you don't care is the worst thing.
I: Have you ever felt like that?
A: Well, yeah, I start feeling like that when I get exhausted.
I: And how do you cope with that?
A: Um, in my case, I go discipline myself a little. Nothing serious, but go out on a walk to shrines, like that. I don't go out in waterfalls:) but that takes away my worries. It kind of weird, but going on a walk or a bicycle trip alone, discipline through a little exercise.
I: Not only use your mind, but also your body...
A: I exhaust myself, and theres many things. Like carrying a heavy load, and you start to realize what's really necessary. I start to think I don't need a cell phone because its heavy and I wanted to toss it, and I had no signal anyways... but I feel really healed by an iPod for some reason.
I: Why is that?
A: Somehow music is really good. So I really only need water, raincoat, and an iPod. I went to a place called Kumano Kodo once. It saids Kumano (Kuma = bear in Japanese) so I figured there will be bears in this place, so someone told me to take my cell phone. I took it, but didn't get any service... Then my feet starts to hurt, and I really started getting sick of all my luggage. I brought some bread with me but I ate it. And I started to realize that those things are not necessary. You don't need it to survive.
I: What do you feel like when you're out training at places like that.
A: Empty, and then I come back from that and start working again.
Part 5: Other Dreams
I: Your art works has been featured in fashion, a science magazine cover, and now in the Louvre. What is the meaning of working on projects besides manga?
A: Um, its the drawing... if theres story and drawing, I guess I'm better at drawing . I don't know, I'm a mangaka, so I have to draw, or otherwise people won't think me as an mangaka. There are mangakas famous for their story, but I'm more on the drawing side, so I want to draw the ultimate picture, something really good.
I: Do you not have enough time at the moment to do that?
A: You know, like the Louvre and the science magazine, especially the science magazine, theres more to that one, but I tend to think all of them as one. Physics, literature, there all the same in a sense that they are searching for the truth. Its nothing alien. So, the person who asked me the science magazine project felt the same way too. He thought that I can illustrate his scientific theory.
I: Was there anything else you were asked to do?
A: Something weird? Is there any thing weird? Maybe the CD cover? The t-shirt designs? I guess the Cell project was the weirdest, but that doctor's medical theory and my philosophy of stands were the same, so he asked me to draw. That way of thinking makes me happy, happy because its kind of like DaVinci. That really is a theory that no one can understand, borderline crazy. No one who sees those sentences agrees to the theory. It might be wrong. And if you write something wrong, someone is going t object later. So that project was a little risky.
I: What do you wish to do next, do you have any requests?
A: Umm... yeah, I probably want to do a series of pictures.
I: You mean like a CD cover?
A: Um, something like the "The Dancing Girl of Izu"
I: Oh!
A: The "The Dancing Girl of Izu" was a little different too. They asked me to draw the cover of "The Dancing Girl of Izu," and I couldn't believe it. They just asked me to do a work based on a famous literature.
I: So, did you choose that?
A: Yeah, but only from the Shyeisha-Bunko series.
I: Why the "The Dancing Girl of Izu."
A: I kind of wanted to draw the emptiness of youth.
Part 6: Message to 22 year olds today
A: I think people's actions should be based on their “eyes to judge beauty.” How to judge what's beautiful. Are your own actions beautiful, or not. And by beautiful, I don't simply mean the appearance of something, but does something fit in, can you understand it. I think studying is for training your “eyes to judge beauty.” For example, whether its physics, sociology, or literature, its a way to find out how the pieces fit together nicely, and the study of medicine is the way to discover a theory to cure beautifully. And as you layer those theories together, you are able to judge things, and if you know how judge you will be able to make a decision. I want young people to train their “eyes” so they can judge things, theories, and themselves, and I don't want them to study only as a way to become rich or for a high academic record. I think having such evil or not is important. It may sound fancy, but being something like a hero for the good is really important.[7]
Jojo’s Bizarre Adventure X Assassination Classroom
Araki Hirohiko & Matsui Yuusei
Dream talk session
A chance meeting between Matsui Yuusei, author of the popular Weekly Jump manga "Assassination classroom", and Araki Hirohiko, who has built a unique world within his "Jojo's Bizarre Adventure". During this relaxed discussion, they raise the curtain on their work methods.
Even though I look like this, I'm an outdoors type of guy (laughs). -Araki
Thank you for coming today! Matsui-sensei ate Araki-sensei's cod roe spaghetti and chicken soup. Can you give us an impression?
Matsui: Really, I'm overwhelmed by being able to eat the food an artist I look up to made. The chicken soup had a really gentle flavour and I felt it was very invigorating. The spaghetti was good too!
Araki-sensei, you said you like to cook as a divergence from your work. Are making food and making manga similar in any way?
Araki: Well, not really (laughs). However, I make both manga and food in gratitude of many things, so I guess they spring from the same source.
You just ate together. Do you do anything special to keep up your health, and what are your favorite foods?
Matsui: I just eat stuff I buy at the convenience store. I take nutritional supplements and go out to eat some proper food every now and then, so I really don’t fuss over my health much yet.
Araki: I don’t eat anything after 6pm. I eat whatever I like in the morning and afternoon, but I don’t eat anything in the evening. If you eat while working in the evenings, you’ll definitely get fat. If you get fat, you won’t want to move and you’ll fall into a downwards spiral, so I’m careful about my health.
Matsui: You’re still very slim. Do you exercise regularly?
Araki: I do.
Matsui: When did you start?
Araki: I think that when people hit their 40s, they’ll want to take up running because they’re tense about their health. I used to like diving and mountaineering, so from there I started running. I actually like exercising. Even though I look like this, I’m an outdoors type of guy (laughs).
Matsui: I didn’t mind exercise before I started Assassination Classroom, but as soon as the serialisation started, my will to exercise disappeared. Moreover, I feel like muscles get in the way when I’m just sitting and letting my mind work at full force, so it can’t be helped. To draw manga you just need your head and hands. Anything else is unnecessary. Although I do think I should keep up my stamina while doing a serialisation, so it’d be bad if I kept going like this.
Mangaka can take a break whenever they want, but they don’t get any holidays. –Matsui'
Photo caption: Jojo has moved to Ultra Jump since Steel Ball Run. Araki-sensei is currently working on Jojolion, but he says the current amount of pages matches his personal rhythm better.
How do you two gather data and materials?
Matsui: I’ve been relying on the internet a lot recently.
Araki: For me it’s still books. However, I have to buy them at a physical bookstore, or it won’t work. I want to choose a book from a bookstore that I like.
Matsui: Where do you buy them normally?
Araki: In Shinjuku or Aoyama. If I go there I’ll know what’s popular, or what the staff recommends. I want to see those things. If I look online I’ll just see the things I like. Without realising I’ll only look for the things I like, so bookstores and CD shops in which I can see what others recommend are an indispensable source of information for me.
I’d like to ask about your weekly schedules and how you work. Araki-sensei, has your work pace changed since you moved from Weekly Jump to Ultra Jump?
Araki: Weekly Jump was 19 pages per week, but that rhythm didn’t work for me. I really wanted to draw 21 pages per week. Since I’ve gone to Ultra Jump it’s become 45 pages per month. This matches my natural work rhythm better, so I can draw comfortably every month.
Matsui: That’s unusual! For me, 19 pages per week is a bit too much. Bringing that to 21 pages even… doesn’t it become a bit demanding? (laughs)
Araki: That’s true. But for Jojo I want the decisive panels to be big, so the page count goes up anyway.
Matsui: That’s typical of Jojo. If you put in “gogogogo” leading up to the decisive panels…. You’d have 21 pages very quickly.
Araki: Perhaps, yes. But what do you do when your name* ends at 17 pages?
(*t/n: A name is a manga manuscript)
Matsui: It’s not that hard to increase the amount. If I’m 2 pages short I’ll consult with my editor. He’ll generally say something like “let’s add these elements”, and when I incorporate those it usually turns out fine. That’s the easiest way.
Araki: I see.
Matsui: On the other hand, it’s much harder to take things out of the material I’ve already got. I take care not to waste too much time on that. I’ve already got my hands full just trying to get it done every week. How did you manage when you worked weekly?
Araki: On Sunday I’d do the name. On Monday I got that checked by my editor, and from Tuesday to Thursday I’d draw with the assistants. On Thursday we’d also discuss the next chapter. Friday and Saturday were my days off.
Matsui: What an ideal week. For veterans like you or Akimoto-sensei* it’s okay, but there’s no one of my age that can pull that off.
- 1… Akimoto Osamu, the creator of Weekly Jump’s longest running manga, Kochikame. He’s looked up to by other mangaka for thoroughly keeping to his schedule and never missing a deadline in over 40 years of serialisation.
Photo caption: Matsui-sensei is giving his all for Assassination Classroom. He doesn’t have time to take a holiday at this point.
Araki: What does your weekly schedule look like?
Matsui: 3 days for the name, 2 days for the sketches. Finishing up with the assistants also takes 2 days. Recently I’ve changed this to 4 days for the name, 1 day for the sketches and 2 days for finishing up with the assistants. There isn’t a day where I can take the whole day off. However, I think the 4 days I take for the name do include breaks of some kind.
Mangaka can take a break whenever they want, but they don’t get any holidays. If you have some free time, you have to use every spare moment to make your story more interesting. It’s hard to take a proper holiday. In that sense, you veterans are good at relaxing. The better you get at work, the better you get at play.
Araki: Fujiko A-sensei* is amazing. I think it’s something personal, that exceeds technique, which brings forth that sort of appeal to a manga.
- 2…A veteran mangaka famous for works such as Pro Golfer Saru and The Laughing Salaryman. Also famous for associating with a wide variety of people, such as the actress Rie Miyazawa and the singer Inoshita Yousui.
Matsui: In my own generation there aren’t that many people that can relax like that. Myself especially, I can’t even say I have a hobby of any kind. That unrelenting energy and willpower, staying active as a mangaka until your 60s…. I can’t imagine it. Last year was Jojo’s 25th year, but you don’t draw it thinking “I should keep going” or anything do you?
Araki: I don’t.
Matsui: Your body moves naturally?
Araki: No. But 30 years pass in no time at all, you know. And I have examples like A-sensei and Akimoto-sensei.
Matsui: To me, you’re a great example as well!
Araki: Thank you. I’m already 53, but I think I should try to keep going until I’m about 60. I think you should take it easy and focus on making your current work interesting!
Next, I’d like to hear about your works. I’d like to talk about Jojo’s Bizarre Adventure first. How was it when your serialisation first started a quarter century ago?
Araki: When I debuted in the 80’s, Jump was full of people that emitted this intense power. I debuted amongst that, so in order to survive I had to emit a power strong enough to stand up to them. In other words, I had to show my own style. When I started Jojo, I think I finally managed to show something like that. I finally found my own direction. In the 7-8 years before that, I kept wandering, struggling to find my originality, my colour. Those were my twenties.
Matsui: But from our point of view, the works you made before that, like “Magic Boy B.T.” and “Baoh”, are pretty distinct as well! No matter how you look at it, it’s Araki-ism.
Araki: Back then, I used to draw while looking at Shirato-sensei’s* works. I moved my pen, wondering what to do.
- 1…One of the pioneers of the “narrative comic” genre of manga in the 1960’s. He gained fame with his ninja works such as “Sasuke”, and managed to draw adults to manga with the philosophical elements of “The Legend of Kamui”.
Matsui: I get that. To me, you were my Shirato-sensei. When I was young, I tried really hard to get rid of your influence. I think I’ve finally managed to shed all of it recently.
Araki: ‘Hiding’ those things means you’ve finally found your own sense of direction. You can clearly draw whatever it is that you want to draw. You can’t have any doubts there.
Matsui: That’s right. But I think it’s too late to escape things I already know. For instance, if an enemy is slowly following someone and it’d be good to put in “gogogogogo”, I think to myself “If you put it in, you lose”, but I still end up putting it in. It’s like that. I mean to put in something original, but then when I look back at it later I often think “This was influenced by that work”.
Araki: For me, it’s the main characters’ thick eyebrows. It took me 10 years to get those thick boy’s magazine-style eyebrows back to thin eyebrows. Truth be told, I just can’t do it because thin eyebrows gross me out. Maybe it’s just bias, but without realising, this influence became deeply ingrained within me.
Matsui: Jotaro had some pretty thick ones too.
Araki: Yes. A supporting character like Kakyoin can have thin eyebrows, but for a main character like Jotaro I just can’t make them thin.
Matsui: Back then, there was that kind of formula where characters with thin eyebrows had weak emotions, so they were supporting characters.
Araki: But when you’re trying to follow your own path, you should break away from those formulas.
Matsui: That’s true! By the way, how old were you when you started Jojo?
Araki: I was about 26-27. You see, people who were at the top like Yudetamago-sensei* and Takahashi Youichi-sensei*already found their style in their teens. So I was really fretting. At the time it gave me a serious complex.
- 2…A famous manga duo known for the superhuman pro wrestling comic “Kinnikuman”. You can still read new episodes of Kinnikuman in Weekly Playboy Webcomic!
- 3…The mangaka of the immortal soccer manga “Captain Tsubasa”. His works gave rise to an immense soccer boom amongst primary school kids, and has influenced many J-leaguers and world-famous soccer players.
Matsui: Nowadays people are quite premature. I was quite late as well, debuting at 25, so I was pretty frantic until I became 30.
I think that even amongst all those other manga, Jojo is a particularly ambitious work. – Matsui.
Araki: Have you ever had your manuscript rejected by an editor before?
Matsui: Actually, it’s only been small comments like adjusting the dialogue in one panel. I haven’t really had any rejection, so I can say I’ve been allowed to draw freely. What’s rejection like?
Araki: I was once made to redraw all 19 pages! That’s how it was back then. New mangaka all had to undergo this kind of baptism. If you said “I only have two days left, do I really have to redraw everything?” they just replied with “Kurumada-sensei* does it too”.
- 4…Kurumada Masami-sensei of “Kojirou of the Fuuma” and “Saint Seiya” fame. One of Weekly Jump’s top runners, churning out hit series since the 70’s.
Matsui: That’s unfair! In those 2 precious days you could have thought of some valuable topics.
Araki: However, if I look back at it, my drawings were really kind of unstable. The faces on the first and last page are a little different.
Matsui: Couldn’t you have tried getting really angry to see if your editor would give in? (laughs)
Everyone bursts out laughing.
Araki: I tried to protest, but it was futile. Even my popular seniors redrew their work if the editor demanded it. A beginner like me had no margin to object, so I resigned to redrawing.
Matsui: Back then they had that style of training where rookies were burdened both mentally and physically.
Araki: That’s right. Something like the Showa* style. In any case, it was ridiculous! (laughs)
(*t/n: Showa is the historical period lasting from 1926 to 1986)
Matsui: I think that these days the editors don’t need to test them that much, since there are a lot of people who will draw without complaining or fighting. Even though it’s the same Weekly Jump, it really changes with the times.
Araki: Though I think the passion to bring interesting manga to the readers hasn’t changed.
Matsui: That’s right. I agree!
Matsui-sensei, you think that Jojo is the greatest masterpiece in history when it comes to drawing grotesque things. But what do you think is so greatly grotesque about Jojo?
Matsui: A lot of the grotesque things are in plain view, and it’s not as if these things can just be healed again. That’s impossible in other manga!
Araki: That’s why I got a lot of rejections. I couldn’t show erotica either. Even if I used stands to portray things, it was all rejected.
Matsui: I think they allowed a lot more than in other works though.
Araki: Well, there were many unprecedented things in Jojo, so the hurdle was pretty low. Still, there were a lot of topics that got rejected.
Matsui: Wow! I’m really curious!! But I’m sure they’re kind of embarrassing to say.
Araki: Yes (laughs).
Matsui: I think that even amongst all those other manga, Jojo is a particularly ambitious work. I’m really interested in the things you thought up that were too ambitious for your editor to understand. I wanted to see those things. It’s a real pity…… Ah, I also get the feeling that you’re alternating between drawing Jojo in a small and a large world setting. Were you aiming for that?
Araki: Maybe I was, yes. Thank you for noticing. When you’ve drawn a small world for a long time, don’t you feel like travelling? I’m just repeating that process.
Matsui: So Morioh, which also appears in Jojolion, is an example of that too?
Photo caption: In Sendai, which stood model for Morioh, there have been many collaborations, like celebrating Jojo's 25th anniversary with an exhibition last year.
Araki: Yes. I used my hometown of Sendai in Miyagi prefecture as a model for Morioh. I made it into a fictional place because I thought they might complain, but they were really happy I used it. I thought “The times sure have changed”.
Matsui: I was actually pretty surprised you drew such a familiar world for your manga.
Araki: Someone told me “I was surprised to see you do something Japanese”. Is it that surprising?
Matsui: Yes. Even when Morioh first appeared in part 4, it still had something foreign.
Araki: But in my personal life I don’t really get out of the neighbourhood I live in. Before I drew part 5 I went to Italy every year though. Recently I haven’t gone out of the country for anything non-work related.
Jojo is currently up to part 8, but what has been the main cause for you to continue for over 25 years?
Araki: It’s accidental. I didn’t plan for it to be like this, nor did I expect it. I don’t even know what will happen next year.
Last time you said you wanted to continue drawing until you were 60, but what part is Jojo up to by then?
Araki: I’m really not thinking about that! I’m just giving Jojolion my all right now. We’ll know when we get there, won’t we (laughs).
Matsui: That reminds me….. you like zombie movies and horror-type things don’t you?
Araki: I love all zombie movies, from the masterpieces to the absolutely terrible ones.
Matsui: I really don’t have a hobby, so I’d like to have one. I don’t really like gaming either. If I had to say anything, it’d probably just be eating good food.
Araki: You don’t watch horror movies?
Matsui: I watch some every now and then, but I can’t say I watch them all or anything. I’m the type of person who decides what to use from a small number of good and bad movies, rather than learn from watching a lot of them.
Araki: Ah, I see….. I thought you must be a horror movie fan too though.
Matsui: Well, it’s true that I love horror movies. Jojo is like horror movies in that at a glance, it seems to be in a genre that people would avoid, but is loved by everyone anyway and does really well.
Araki: You’re too kind. But it’s good to be perverse too! It’s fine to be perverse as long as you keep it limited. If you get serious about it no one will like you.
Matsui: Yes. If it doesn’t have some kind of charm about it, people won’t like it in the end. Even the most inhumane character should have some kind of charm point. In that sense, don’t you think zombies are super charming?
Araki: Exactly! Zombie movies are really great. I think there’s something wrong with people who say “I can’t watch zombie movies because they’re scary”, even though they haven’t watched any (laughs). But I’ll go on forever if we keep talking about zombie movies, so let’s end it here.
Everyone bursts out laughing.
Araki: We’d need 2 hours if we had this conversation, so let’s talk about zombie movies another time.
As long as the starting point is controversial, it’s fine to be moral afterwards. -Matsui
Photo caption: Korosensei has many tentacles. The gap between his striking appearance and his personality as a humorous, ideal teacher has been reflected in the story since its beginning.
Araki-sensei, I’d like to hear your thoughts on Assassination Classroom.
Araki: It deals with a pretty risky theme, so if it was handled wrong there’d be a lot of complaints. Within that theme you’ve managed to draw about things like school life and friendship, while still keeping morality in mind. It thought that was splendid.
Matsui: I always take great care in making sure no one will copy the actions in my work. For that reason I also needed to create a teacher that isn’t human. The students also use fake knives for their assassinations, so I’m really careful.
Araki: I see. But that edge is what makes it charming. The title, “Assassination Classroom”, is pretty controversial too.
Matsui: It’s just that though. I make the start controversial and then play it safe on the rest.
Araki: But having “assassination” as a theme is still pretty controversial.
Matsui: Thank you! That reminds me. In Jojo, people would slip in the bath and look up at the ceiling…...at which point the battle starts. I don’t think there’s anyone else but you who could turn such an every-day scene into a dramatic, tense battle.
Araki: That’s thanks to working for Weekly Jump all those years. You simply have to draw battles. That’s a very unique working culture, isn’t it? But it’s also a curse that’s quite hard to get rid of.
Matsui: It makes me want to see you draw something that isn’t about battles. What would it be like if you drew a genuine story manga?
Araki: Wouldn’t that be pretty boring? (laughs) In the end, I think battles are the foundation of manga. There’s a main character, a villain and friends. I think my themes are pretty conventional, such as “Good and Evil” or “Conflict”. But even if you make it romance or gags, isn’t everything a battle in the end? Whether you’re deciding to have curry or ramen for lunch; every choice you make is a form of battle.
Matsui: I see! I’m also pretty conscious of what kinds of characters would appeal to kids these days. The kids niche might change and all. Maybe I dealt with it the wrong way, but when I drew this pretty bad character getting beaten up, some people still disapproved of that, even though I got a lot of votes*.
(*t/n: The popularity of manga in WJ is decided by a system of voting through a survey card that is attached in the magazine every week. You pick your three favourite manga of that week and send it in.)
Araki: So you should have let them reconcile.
Matsui: No matter how bad the character is, if you just beat them up it’ll end up leaving a bad taste.
Araki: In Jojo they’re just beyond recovery though. When I think “I don’t need these guys anymore”.
Everyone bursts out laughing.
Matsui: “They put me through all that, so I can have my revenge”, right? I’m jealous that your unique worldview is so accepted by the readers.
I think Assassination Classroom’s story will progress rapidly from here on out, but will we be seeing any new characters?
Photo caption: The students keep developing through their time with Korosensei. The story will expand even further in the second semester!!
Matsui: I had a very solid structure for the first semester. Introducing the characters, introducing the world setting. By now I think everyone will remember the students’ names and faces, so I want to gradually expand the story through the second semester. I’m thinking I could show the kids using their assassination skills in the outside world a bit more.
We look forward to future developments! Finally, if you could give each other some words of encouragement, as well as a message to the Jump Live readers?
Matsui: I couldn’t say everything because I was so nervous, but since middle school, Jojo has been part of my youth. I can’t put it all in one word, but if I must say something it’s….. I love it!!
Araki: I don’t get many chances to meet artists from the new generation, so I was really glad to be able to do this. I’m honoured to have been asked for this and I’m grateful we were able to have such a deep conversation. This time it was a video and a discussion, but next time I’d like to draw manga too. Thank you for everything today.
Matsui: Aw, you’ve said everything already.
Everyone bursts out laughing.
Matsui: Assassination Classroom is contributing to Jump Live in various ways, like mini-games and special drawings. Korosensei has a pretty simple form, so it’s easy to make him appear in all sorts of things. I’d like to have him use that light footwork and appear in Jump Live again sometime, so please keep supporting us!
And just like that, this bizarre special discussion comes to an end! Look forward to Araki-sensei and Matsui-sensei’s further activities![8]
December 29th, 2006
ARAKI HIROHIKO & NEKOI TSUBAKI SPECIAL TALK
From the xxxHolic reading guide, new edition.
Araki: My meeting with CLAMP was quite interesting. Though I don't know if it's all right to say this.
Nekoi: It's fine, please go ahead. *laughs*
Araki: By coincidence they frequent the same beauty salon as my wife. So apparently she was chatting with the beautician saying "My husband draws manga," and they told her "We have other clients who are mangaka too."
Nekoi: That's right. Then I heard that Araki-sensei's wife was there and basically it turned into a huge deal.
Araki: We live quite close so said "Why not come over sometime if you like?" and that's how it started.
Nekoi: But really, I've only met Sensei four or fives times in total up to now. And it was always the four of us as a group, so I think this is the first time we've had a one-to-one conversation. I'm really nervous.
Araki: Come to think of it, at first I believed CLAMP were male. I thought it was a man pretending to be a woman in order to draw in a girlish style. [2] And then I heard rumours that it was several people collaborating and not just one person, and I thought, What the hell? There were too many pieces of information flying around, I couldn't make sense of it. It was pretty mysterious.
NEKOI TSUBAKI'S FASCINATION WITH ARAKI'S SLIGHTLY ALIEN WORK
Nekoi: It was really very early on that I encountered Sensei's work and thought "Wow, I love this person's manga" - with Devil Boy BT.
Araki: BT! I got into so much trouble with the editors for that one. They said right off the title was impossible, there's no way you can run a manga called "Devil Boy" in Shounen Jump, and that the main character was evil. I had to explain that it was essentially a rehash of Sherlock Holmes and in the end somehow I convinced them.
Nekoi: That's amazing, it was that difficult then. I couldn't have imagined but there was something alien about it I found as a child, I think, and that fascinated me.
Araki: Really though, the 70s were a period in the manga world where you had to develop to set yourself apart from the crowd. That was the tide, to go where no one else had gone before. I worked hard on that, so it makes me very happy to be told someone liked it.
Nekoi: I loved it!
Araki: Thank you very much! But, to think those readers back then have become what they are now... it's amazing. They even criticized my work. *laughs*
Nekoi: Please don't say things that sound so awful~
Araki: They crowded up and were like "Why did you do such a thing to Jotaro there!?"
Nekoi: But, anyone would do that if they had their favorite mangaka in front of them! You don't know if the chance will ever come again, right? So you want to run up and make them tell you everything! [3]
THE BLACK-AND-WHITE AESTHETIC ADMIRED BY ARAKI
Araki: If I had to say what interests me the most as someone in the same line of work, it would be how you divide the work among the four of you. I've heard you don't use assistants so… In any case I would venture that xxxHolic is mainly drawn by Nekoi-san, is it not?
Nekoi: I wonder if that's so... perhaps that's not the case? *laughs*
Araki: It must be Nekoi-san, surely. The kimono styles, the atmosphere of the art has that feel to it... I don't suppose you can tell me? [4]
Nekoi: No, it's quite all right, I'll answer.
Araki: Ah, you can tell! I thought this might be CLAMP's greatest secret. *laughs*
Nekoi: I'll go with the conclusion. The female characters in xxxHolic are drawn by Mokona.
Araki: Eh! Yuuko-san and Himawari-chan and everyone!?
Nekoi: That's right. I draw the male characters, the youkai, and any spirits that aren't in human shape. And animals. The covers and colour pages are Mokona and I together. The overall flow is blocked out by Mokona from Ohkawa's script, after which I check it, and that's how things typically advance. If we get stuck on anything we go back to Ohkawa and ask, "I don't quite understand this part, what is it supposed to be?" and then we fix it. Once everything is settled, Satsuki, Mokona and Nekoi each draw our parts separately.
Araki: You're really systematic. How did you establish xxxHolic's global aesthetic?
Nekoi: There's a concept for the cover or opening art each time, and that's decided by Ohkawa. The story and worldview are all Ohkawa. She's like the overseeing producer.
Araki: There's something of an Art Nouveau element to it, design wise.
Nekoi: There's a Japanese-ness to it, and Chinese too.
Araki: The gothic atmosphere that permeates the work is a large part of its charm. All that flat black is great.
Nekoi: We decided not to use tones this time.
Araki: Yes, it's good to have a clear divide between black and white. That's something I can't do. I can't bring myself to colour something in as a flat surface. I have to crosshatch and make it stand out in 3D. Something like a school uniform, it's frightening to colour it in… if I bring it down to a basic aesthetic level, perhaps.
Nekoi: But if I had to choose I'd pick Tsubasa's tactile feel. *laughs*
Araki: I see. But you can also draw in a gothic style. That's amazing! All of xxxHolic has a flat, decorative feel to it, like Japanese prints or Alphonse Mucha.
Nekoi: Ah, Mokona likes Mucha.
Araki: I thought so. It comes across. And the base colour of the tankoubon covers is never white.
Nekoi: That's true. It's always gold or silver, and then colour printed over it.
Araki: The feeling that there's an overriding concept at work is what makes it special. I think it's cool. With the JoJo series I wanted to use the classical method as a base and then introduce modern elements in the singular. For instance, drawing in a realistic style but colouring in completely impossible colours. Or completely impossible poses.
Nekoi: Impossible poses… but the fans imitate the poses? The "JoJo stances".
Araki: True, true. That's the thing, I aim for impossible but then am like, "Huh? Well, I guess it's possible after all..." *laughs*
WHERE IS REALITY? THE DAY THE KAPPA APPEARED IN TOONO
Araki: Does CLAMP ever travel for research purposes?
Nekoi: Almost never. We know that drawing from imagination can't approach the solidity that comes with research, that level of reality where people can say, "Turn the corner right there and you'll see my house..." But if you take the scenery from xxxHolic, for example, the place where Yuuko-san exists is an enclosed courtyard really. Aside from that I think depicting fantasy in a fantastical way is also a matter of technique. Well – one of our early stories did have an Indian flavour to it.
Araki: I understand. For my part, you see, I'm currently drawing a journey as my main theme. I started wondering about the psychology of someone who's been walking for three days straight. So I went and walked the Kumano pilgrimage road, which is a World Heritage site, to see what it was like.
Nekoi: Wow. And did you understand anything from it?
Araki: Yup. After three days, first of all you want to throw away everything you're carrying. I even wished I could throw away the cel phone they told me to carry in case I came across a bear. And when I saw the shrine at the end of the road, I felt thankful from the bottom of my heart. I honestly and unironically thought, "Thank god I came this far without getting hurt." It cleansed my heart, perhaps? I understood then that the road was put there in order to give people that experience.
Nekoi: That's a World Heritage site for you.
Araki: xxxHolic takes place in a magical alternate world, doesn't it. What I get hung up on is, What are those youkai-like things!? The ones shaped like young girls and the ones shaped like animals, and the monster types, are they all part of the same existence?
Nekoi: Er... the properly-formed youkai and the monster-like ayakashi are different things actually. But then, if you put them all together one can't say much other than "Well, that's the kind of world it is."
Araki: The "stands" in JoJo can be conceptualized as a reification of hidden talent, with their source being a sort of energy that's been in the earth since ancient times. So there are no real monsters or youkai in my story. I've never really been able to get the existence of such things. I looked at Mizuki Shigeru-sensei's drawings and thought they were lovely, but when I saw something like a "bean washer" in the picture I would just think, What's up with that? I couldn't see any reason for that creature to exist. Purely for the sake of washing beans?
Nekoi: That's true. It's the sort of world where you go take a bath and there's an "akaname" in there.
Araki: Exactly. What the heck is it? Is it an enemy? An ally? What does it want? If you can't figure out that much how are you supposed to fight it! Is what I think.
Nekoi: That's a Jump-like way of looking at it. *laughs*
Araki: With that in mind, the other day I went to Toono, in Iwate. In order to gain a better understanding of youkai.
Nekoi: Wah~ Such lengths. *laughs*
Araki: "I'd like to draw youkai too~" was what I was half-thinking. *laughs* So I went to the Kappa River there, the one that's famous for kappas, and stood on the riverbank spacing out. And as I was standing, there was this middle school-aged boy there at the same time, and he bursts out with, "Hirohiko's in the Kappa River!" Like, "Oniichan, look, there's a Hirohiko in the Kappa River!"
Nekoi: *dies*
Araki: And even I for some reason thought for a split second, "Gah, I have to get out of here!" At that moment I finally understood what it must feel like to be a youkai. *laughs*
Nekoi: You understood what it feels like to be a youkai, huh... *laughs* I bet it's passed into legend by now. His brother came and said, "There's no such thing, you're lying!" And he said, "It was really there, I saw it!" And there was a huge disturbance, and years afterward you'll hear the story of the kappa Hirohiko in the river.
Araki: So there, I think that might be what youkai really are.
FIGHTIN' PRESIDENTS AND DRAMA AT HIGH NOON
Araki: If it had an Indian flavour... do you watch a lot of movies? On DVD or whatever.
Nekoi: I watch films in the usual way, because I'm always following fads. I liked "Jurassic Park".
Araki: I like stuff like that too. Like "Jaws". But recently I've really been into Michael Mann's films: "Heat", "Collateral" and so forth. I like the sense one gets that the characters are driven by fate, but they don't hesitate over their actions. They hurtle toward their destiny in a way that goes beyond considerations of good or evil. It makes me weak at the knees. They're not movies you're supposed to cry at but I get tears in my eyes anyway. I think, "Oh, you people!" Do you have anything like that?
Nekoi: I'm faddish but I did like "Independence Day".
Araki: The story's pretty astonishing in that one. In order to fight with aliens, they get into a flying saucer that was buried on earth by aliens in the past. The human strategy was like ripping off the opponent's fundoshi in sumo. The designs all came from other SF works. And on top of it all the President himself flew the saucer to fight. When I saw that I decided the party would be battling the President in Steel Ball Run.
Nekoi: Really!?
Araki: Yeah, I realized a fighting President is awesome. [5] Was there ever anything like it?
Nekoi: It's very American. Although maybe Americans themselves don't realise it. And it was a German who made it. I think he made it with the intention that that's what Americans would like to see, and it really hit home. I like it too! *laughs*
Araki: What about Japanese films? I don't go to the theater but I watch a lot of DVDs. I saw "Sekachu" and so on.
Nekoi: Wow, you saw it?
Araki: Yes, it was good.
Nekoi: Was it!
Araki: Yes. I'm the type who cries at everything. That's right, lately I've gotten hooked on daytime soaps. Ever since "Shinju Fujin" I can't go without checking in with the latest developments. She became his lover with the aim of getting her hands on his fortune! It's awesome!
Nekoi: *laughs*
Araki: The dialogue gives one thrills down the spine. They say such dangerous and suggestive things the viewer's left panting. Like, is it all right to show that? But there they have it on television, at high noon.
Nekoi: It feels like you watch it to enjoy the names.
Araki: Exactly. A lot of mangaka seem to watch soaps, because time-wise it's just when one's getting out of bed. Morita (Masanori) sensei told me he also watches them. *laughs*
CLAMP'S MYSTERY VERSUS KISHIBE ROHAN'S SKIN: AND ONWARD, LEGEND
Araki: Many of CLAMP's mysteries were made clear to me today, so for my part this has been a meaningful hour spent. Thank you very much.
Nekoi: The pleasure's all mine, thank you very much. Though I would have liked to talk more about JoJo.
Araki: But today we're talking about xxxHolic.
Nekoi: Don't you think we should reveal more of JoJo's mysteries too, even for the sake of the reader?
Araki: Oh, I think it'll be quite enough if you say "He's so cool and looks just like Kishibe Rohan ♥". *laughs*
Nekoi: Oh yes, that's true. He's so cool and looks just like Kishibe Rohan. *laughs* And you look younger and younger in the photos that get published these days.
Araki: That's because I'm a hamon user. *laughs* [6]
Nekoi: Please do become a new legend in Toono, I'd love to see it.
Araki: Leave it up to me. *laughs*[9]
About each other’s beginnings
Araki: Shall we begin by talking about each other’s beginnings?
Kaneko: Yes.
Araki: The first question will be related to work, but are you also involved in writing the stories?
Kaneko: Officially not, but I contribute as well.
Araki: Ah, I knew it! Looking at the illustration books, I believe that, after all, you can’t draw without being involved in the story. Nevertheless, even though you only do the designs, it’s amazing how many you create. There are also a lot of descriptions regarding the characters’ backgrounds and so on, aren’t there? I design Stands combining those characteristics. For example, it would be strange if I
didn’t give a water Stand a certain type of design.
Kaneko: Of course, I think about the way the characters are and I draw them according to their personality type.
Araki: I see. For example, if something releases poisonous gas from its shoulders, it will definitely need a hole. Now the question is,
what kind of hole would be most fitting?
Kaneko: But when Jojo is in front of the Stand, there will also be strange poses and things like that, right? How does that work?
Araki: I’ll eventually get to that too. Just in a little while (laughs).
Kaneko: Oh, is it still your turn?
Araki: Yes, yes (laughs). I have things I want to ask.
Kaneko: Understood. Then please ask me (laughs).
Araki: First, my parents used to read to me all kinds of books when I was a wee little boy, like “The Adventures of Tom Sawyer” or Jules Verne’s “Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea”. Only this kind of books and no Japanese ones at all. That’s why I grew up to be very attracted to foreign countries, even when it comes to food and music. And that’s also why I don’t really like Japanese food.
Kaneko: I’m not too fond of Japanese food either, but you see, my parents owned a sushi shop (laughs)/
Araki: Hahaha. Really?
Kaneko: I really came to hate it when I saw eels getting skewered after their eyes were removed (laughs). But, returning to the main question, I was more into Disney than Jules Verne. What about music? I can see from reading your works that you love Western music. I love it as well, but you know Takenoko-zokum right? I used to do that before.
Araki: That’s not Western music, is it (laughs).
Kaneko: But what about Dschinghis Khan? (laughs). They were very interesting. I stopped watching Yoru Hit, and quickly got into Western music and came to love funk and other styles.
Araki: I like progressive rock.
Kaneko: Eh, progressive rock? (laughs)
Araki: From the ‘70s. Bands like Yes or Emerson, Lake & Palmer.
Kaneko: Almost all your Stand names come from progressive rock bands, huh.
Araki: Well, yes but…(laughs)
Kaneko: I liked Esidisi [AC/DC] (laughs). It fit really well.
Araki: If the bands are foreign, using their names is ok. But this is definitely not the case for Japanese bands. That’s no good. Or maybe I should say, it’s empathy. It’s a bit strange, like “What kind of silly things is this guy talking about?” (laughs)
Kaneko: Well, Western bands also sing about rather silly things, right?
Araki: If I knew what they were saying, I’d get too embarrassed to continue listening (laughs). That’s why for me it’s about the rhythm, the propagation of sound. There’s a sort of space between the sounds. Like the subtlety of the strings, the pauses, the way the air vibrates. That’s why I’m fine with whatever that person sings.
Kaneko: Do you get motivated to work during times like this?
Araki: Yes, yes, I get motivated and I start crying.
Kaneko: Eh, you start crying? (laughs)
Araki: That’s right. “Oh〜, this is so sad〜” (laughs). Don’t you get sad even if the lyrics have nothing to do with it?
Kaneko: Oh, I do, I do. Similarly to diabolus in musica, making your emotions fluctuate, right? If you used it well, you’d even be able to manipulate people, don’t you think? (laughs)
Where do you collect data from?
Araki: Do you travel abroad to collect data?
Kaneko: No, not really.
Araki: Soo, you are the type to admire foreign countries from afar?
Kaneko: Well, I guess so. I read the books I have with utmost attention and absorb all the information the writers provide, but that’s pretty sly, isn’t it (laughs). But I’d love to travel if I had the time. You travel a lot, don’t you?
Araki: I only travel to certain places though; I’ve been to Italy many times, for example, and I love how it’s the “real deal”. Other countries just look like imitations in comparison – when I see sculptures or other works of art, I can only think “Oh, this is an imitation of that sculpture.”.
Kaneko: I want to look more into Japan’s underground, like the lifestyle of the people around Shinokubo or drug routes.
Araki: So you can include them in games?
Kaneko: Exactly. There are a lot of games that take place in our current times, so inevitably I got interested in present Tokyo. It’s not limited to the city, but the places where people gather have different appearances depending on the time of the day, so I wonder whether I can convey the impact of the contrast between noon and the darkness night brings. I simply like clubs and the like as well…
Araki: What kind of clubs do you visit?
Kaneko: I don’t, but now I go to a lot of spacious establishments. When I was young, I used to go to hobby shops quite a lot, but now… Before, there was no automatic water in clubs, so the toilets would be filled with ice and once it melted it would turn into automatic water. And then, if you went to the toilet at 4 a.m., you’d find the whole place drenched in blood.
Araki: Huh, why?
Kaneko: Group scuffles, it seems. Well, both scary and painful things happened, but looking and hearing about those rowdy times has become a very important factor to me now.
Araki: But if Tokyo is the main setting, then it’s all right. I first came up with the concept of “Stands” when I was in Egypt, since the people over there looked really suspicious. So I thought they were all bad guys.
Kaneko: Hahahaha.
Araki: It wouldn’t have been odd if anyone there had turned against me. No matter how kind they were to me, I just couldn’t trust them.
Kaneko: Sounds like something you won’t be able to let go of.
Araki: And that’s how I created Stands, the power of evil, or should I say, a different kind of power.
Kaneko: Ooh, is that why the manga takes place in Egypt?!
Araki: Exactly. Well, the editor loved Egypt as well; the inhabitants’ power was truly great.
Kaneko: As I thought, if you don’t go there it won’t actually be clear.
Araki: For that reason, the people closeby have great power, but the further they are, the weaker their power gets. I made all kinds of rules.
Kaneko: It would be boring if they were all-powerful. It’s good that the characters in your manga also have weak points they can overcome. We use demons in our games, but we thought of adding a slightly different nuance to it - “What if we used them as guardian spirits?”. That’s how the concept of Persona was born. We call them guardian spirits, but they are actually great Indian gods or all kinds of demons. Just as the name suggests, doesn’t Persona mean someone’s “personality”? One’s other self. So, how should I put it, there are all kinds of “other selves”, from the characters’ current appearance, to their manner of speech and even to their job. I thought I’d combine them all. That’s how the characters in the game started moving around naturally.
The impetus to start drawing
Araki: What made you become a graphic designer?
Kaneko: I’ve been drawing for a long time, but I wanted to become a manga artist at first. Later, in middle school, when I wanted to be popular with girls, I’d try to look like a badass, but fail (laughs). When I reached a certain age, I asked myself what job I’d take; I couldn’t become a musician, I couldn’t become anything. And the last option I had was drawing. Getting into a company was good, but I realized I didn’t have much strength by myself, so from then on I put a lot of effort into it.
Araki: You see, I went to the kendo club in school, but I wasn’t praised even once, whether I won or lost. However, when I’d draw manga, everyone would tell me how good I was. That’s how I started. My friends too would get really enthusiastic about it, like “This is the greatest thing ever!”
Kaneko: Hahaha. It looks like you already had editors by that time.
Araki: Yes, yes, they really sounded like editors (laughs). So I really got into this and would tell myself I’d keep drawing the entire following night as well. These designs [are influenced] by Go Nagai, right?
Kaneko: That’s right, Go Nagai’s influence is strong. Also, Kamen Rider, kaijuu…
Araki: Yes, the kaijuu effect is definitely there!
Kaneko: It’s impossible to say the name of all the kaijuu. But if I’m shown the Rider cards, I can tell everyone’s names. But you know what’s interesting? When you look into the designs and discover the original source of inspiration, like Ultra Seven’s monsters being the spitting image of clay figures (doguu).
Araki: Ah, yes, you’re right.
Kaneko: I realised this while I was wondering whether armour should have a (Western) clothes motif, but if you left out the armour it would have looked just like Ultraman’s costume; it becomes Western armour from the outline.
Araki: An extremely abstract image. Didn’t Picasso, after seeing African masks, want to see how simple he could make his own paintings? Same here. Ultraman’s form is indeed extreme. The type of design you simply can’t imitate, just like Snoopy. You generally can’t draw that sort of thing.
Kaneko: You start thinking why it is actually like that (laughs).
Araki: If you make Ultraman’s design simpler than this, he won’t look cool anymore.
Kaneko: Besides, anyone will be able to draw him. That’s why adding one thing after another is easy. Simplifying things, on the other hand, is really difficult.
Finally talking about fashion
Kaneko: What do you usually wear? Neatly fitted clothes?
Araki: I rarely wear ties and the like. And even then, is there a brand that actually suits me? There are brands that don’t fit me at all, that make me feel like I’m anything but myself. Prada, for example, or Gucci.
Kaneko: Indeed, this does tend to happen. I have a lot of Gaultier suits, but I go shopping often. Because of that, when people ask “Are people like mangaka coming?”, it seems they are pretty familiar with Jump authors like K.M. or T.B. Apparently, Mr. K.M once spent several tens of thousands yen on clothes. “That’s so awesome!”, I thought. It looks like Mr. T.B’s clothes are bought by his friends or his girlfriend though. In the end I realised that there are all kinds of mangaka as well! (laughs)
Araki: I don’t really go shopping. If we’re talking about brands, then my picks are Versace or Dolce & Gabbana; still, I’m not too crazy about them. However, when it comes to fashion, I love looking at models. Don’t you think models have this kind of spectre quality to them? The way they tilt their head or their mouths look oddly big. That kind of stuff captivates me. And so, by reproducing them, they gradually turn into Jojo-like characters (laughs) – like bending their hips back or forth. This kind of bending is also because of Italy.
Kaneko: So this is how they are turned into Jojo’s characteristic poses! Like, “ズキューン！!” or grabbing a blood vessel and going “You
should be still” (laughs). There’s a fairy named Trish in Persona who helps characters recover their health. Her name comes from the fashion model Trish Goff. Back when she wasn’t that famous I used to think “She’s so cute!”. Her name was interesting as well. But then she became super famous not long after and I thought “This is bad!” (laughs).
Araki: But I find it amazing that you knew about her from that time. She was already popular by the time I had created Trish Una.
Kaneko: All models have really cool names, don’t they? Like Shalom Harlow.
Araki: Her huge eyes are cool as well.
Kaneko: Lately, thin models have become more numerous than bigger ones, huh. Like Devon Aoki.
Araki: Devon Aoki has got a strange air about her too.
Kaneko: Did you know she is Rocky Aoki’s daughter?
Araki: Eh, is that so? Who is Rocky Aoki anyway (laughs).
Kaneko: Do you know the restaurants Benihana?
Araki: Oh, yes, yes.
Kaneko: He is the owner. Incidentally, isn’t there someone in Jojo part 4 who likes Ferré? “Is it because Mr.Araki likes him?” I wondered.
Araki: But the truth is, even if I write this, I think “They don’t know about it” while writing it, but do it anyway.
Kaneko: Moschino is the same, right?
Araki: Oh, oh, Moschino was good too! I was surprised when it appeared. The peace mark design came from there.
Kaneko: Double suits are characteristic to them too. The buttons are in the place of the eyes, forming a face. Lately, there have been new designs from John Galliano or Alexander McQueen. They’d make good Stands as well (laughs).
Araki: Also, I like Roberto Cavalli too. Quite a lot of people have been debuting these days. They don’t have shops in Tokyo though. They remind of that type of dangerous ladies. I think that kind of thing is great.
What flows from the root of your work
Kaneko: Your works are referenced in a lot of things, right? It’s kind of like Shakespeare, or, how should I put it, something not seen with other Japanese drama, literature or manga.
Araki: But you know, there’s also Kajiwara Ikki. “In order for small people to beat big people, you must think of yourself as a small fry!”, something like this (laughs). I find this kind of thought pattern moving. Like, “Don’t say such cool things!”. , I still got that kind of feeling even though I read that in my fourth year of elementary school.
Kaneko: I’m a bit startled that you’ve read Kajiwara Ikki’s works. It’s quite different from what I expected.
Araki: Truth is, I started with “Star of the Giants”.
Kaneko: Eh, no way?!
Araki: I think it was during my first year of elementary school…This is something I don’t usually say, but “Magazine” was the first publication I talked to in order to publish my first manga. However, incidentally during that time Kajiwara Ikki stopped serializing in “Magazine” so I switched over to “Jump” (laughs).
Kaneko: Eh, that’s seriously unexpected (laughs).
Araki: Despite saying I love foreign countries, I also love stories where poor people rise in the world.
Kaneko: When I see the photos in the tankoubon, it’s kind of rude of me to say, but I think you look like you had a good upbringing (laughs).
Araki: Hahahaha.
Kaneko: Because of that, when you write about Kishibe Rohan and those kind of stories, all the more I wonder “Is this really all right?” (laughs)
Araki: But you are surprising as well. You had a more frightening image.
Kaneko: I’m often told that. I have more of an role-playing personality. Truth is, I’m a pretty easy-going guy. Speaking of manga, I was into “The Genius Bakabon”.
Araki: Oh, Akatsuka Fujio-sensei (laughs). It was quite a thing (laughs). Great stuff.
Kaneko: I simply loved the surrealistic setting, couldn’t get enough of it. After all, it’s the person who discovered Tamori! In a way, he raised him and turned him into who he is today.
Araki: Speaking of settings, I went to a Christian school. That’s why I read the Bible every day and that particular way of thinking got ingrained in my brain.
Kaneko: Is that so! Was it a Catholic school?
Araki: No, it was a Protestant one. As a kid, I thought “What the…?” at the disciple’s betrayal, but as an adult I understood how important it was. Different kinds of literary works also have their roots in it, and I’ve come to understand all kinds of allusions. However, in my case, rather than believing in God, I believe something exists. It’s difficult to say it concretely, but it includes destiny. Because of that, if the basis of my works doesn’t have that kind of thing, they become something scary. “Why am I drawing manga?”, stuff like that. Am I doing it in order to earn money or to impress women? In time, they become terrible things to feel. But if I have fairness and humanity, I persevere.
Kaneko: Indeed, if you don’t have human love, you can’t draw. It’s obviously fine if you can get money out of this as well though (laughs). But doing it just for this is not right.
Araki: You definitely need it in order to continue, don’t you think?
Kaneko: It also gets difficult when you start thinking “Why do people exist?”.
Araki: You reach this question when you draw about things like destiny – “Why is this person here?”. If you’re attached to the protagonist,the question gets even more important. The people who make RPGs feel that to an even higher degree, right?
Kaneko: That’s right. We think about the inevitable fate of the characters. Don’t animals exist on the earth freely? Earthworms exist to clean the soil, isn’t their purpose to leave descendants? However, only humans do something different.
Araki: But if that kind of world comes to the surface, then it’s no good. We shouldn’t see the lowest of the lowest. However, if they didn’t exist, then it would get even worse. Not only manga, but also music and just about everything.[10]
"To be honest becoming a mangaka was my childhood dream. When I was about 9, I was drawing all the time at school and my friends I was showing my drawings to, like them a lot. It gaves me the bravery and desire to try my luck in that field. And after at universty I could participate in a contest which allowed me to begin my career as a mangaka."
"When I was young in the early 70's there was a huge amount of manga that I liked. My favorite ones being those with stories dealing about sports, horror, and even sci-fi. Therefore I was inspired by all of this to create my own stories. I'm not sure but still I consider having been inspired a lot of by the works of my elders and I reckon my work wouldn't be what it is "without them. Anyhow I'm still attached to the past of manga and there is still today influence by the authors I'd read as a teenager."
"What I've been trying to do when I started manga was to make evolve the drawing which was somehow too flat, but from the 80's on mangakas started to inspire from Michaelangelo's work. The generation of mangaka I belong to was inspired much by the artists like Michaelangelo or some French painters in order to create characters whose physical aspects was more striking."
(On Tetsuo Hara, I suppose) "The fact that our drawings look alike is very easy to explain. We started at about the same period in the early 80's and it was then too that movies starring Sylvester Stallone or Arnold Schwarzenegger started to come to Japan and all these action movies were big hits there. Actually I reckon we wanted to make manga starring macho characters, with big muscles and fighting all the time, a bit like the heroes of the action movies."
"Before the 5th part I reckon, the story was too long so I'll try to make them shorter now."
"The new generation of mangaka is about 10 years younger than me, so they've read Jojo in their childhood, and so it's normal that it has inspired them."
"What I've been trying to do when I started Jojo is to implement a powerful and invisible force which would overcome my characters during the fights. So the idea of stand came to me by thinking of shintoism, which teaches us that our ancestors are always by our side to protect us."
"It's a real pain in the ass for me trying to show the good side of some of my bad guys as it's always very hard. I'd rather go for a more stereotyped approach where I create a hero who will fundamentally be good and to make it balanced, oppose him to a truly evil being."
"About the animé nothing is planned so far but maybe in the future the 5th part will be adapted to TV too." (!?)
"I've no experience as a prisoner myself but I've visited jails and made researches on the subject to make my scenario credible and I've no real mesage to pass on except maybe the condition of mangaka regarding to their editors. Every week I've to hand in 20 new pages to mine.
I work simply, on friday I imagine what's next in the story and write the scenario, then from saturday to tuesday I create the drawings, so normally I've two days off a week, but I mainly use them to imagine the sories of weeks to come."
"I deal with the main drawing but my assistants are the ones who deal with the details. And if I can be here today it's only because I've just finished the 6th part so I'm entitled to a few holidays. But the rest of the time I'm very busy." [11]
One question and one answer from Araki-sensei, "Feelin JOJO" final episode special!!
JOJO Q&A!!
"Jojo's Bizarre Adventures is headed in to it's 12th year! And as it's the last episode of "Feelin JOJO", we've had Araki-sensei himself appear!! He'll point blank answer some of the questions in JoJos!!
Q: Who's the strongest in the Passione?
A: Abbachio. (If we're talking about fist fighting...)
Character part
Q1: Who is the first character you came up with in the allies of part 5?
A: It's Giorno! By the way, the characters I'm most fond of is Giorno if we're talking about allies, and Pesci if we're talking about villains.
Q2: What is that thing on Abbachio's head?
A: It's a hat that acts like a hairband. The thing on Buccelatti's head is a hairpin brooch, and Mista keeps a lot of things in his hat. Mista is the kind of guy that wants to keep both hands open at all times, so he adds things to it pretty often. It also seems that he feels like it's a pain for him to carry things around too.
Side comment: The thing on Abbachio's head wasn't an eggshell after all...
Q3: Who spends the most money on their clothes?
A: Mista. His sweater is cashmere, and his pants are zebra striped leather pants! (it's suspected that it breaks the Washington Convention)
Q4: Before they met Giorno, how did Buccellati's gang earn their livelihood?
A: They received money for protecting restaurants, controlled ports, and what you would call gang work. They didn't affiliate with gambling and drug business. Of course they didn't go to school.
Q5: Do all of them have girlfriends? Also, who is the most popular and the least popular in the gang?
A: They don't have girlfriends. They are so popular it seems like they're always running away from girls. However, it seems like all of them think that "I'm the most popular"...
Q6: When looking at Fugo's pants, it looks like there's no way he could be wearing underwear but.... Does he not have underwear on?
A: It can be assumed that he's wearing the t-back like sexy things that are popular now a days.
Side comment: When you look around his waist it really does look like he's not wearing any underwear.
Q7: When they're interrogating Zucchero, what was up with Narancia and Fugo starting to dance to the music that Narancia put on?
A: They are dancing to gangster rap. As they are a gang...
Side comment: Even though we know what they are dancing to, why they started dancing is still a mystery...
JoJo's Bizarre Adventures celebrating 11 years of being published.
Q: Who is riding in Aerosmith?
A: It's Smith-san.
Side comment: Check the cockpit! The person riding in here is Smith-san!!
Q8: What does Jotaro intend to do with Giorno?
A:I haven't thought of it yet. It might be that he's just simply curious about him...?
Q9: Is Trish based off of the super model Trish Goff?
A: Good job! I'm surprised that you know this. As you thought, I'm a big fan of hers.
Stand part
Q10: Will Fugo die from the abilities of Purple Haze?
A: He would die.
Q11: What is the name of the stand that you put the key in the turtle to activate? Also, what is the name of the turtle?
A: The turtle has no name. The name of the stand is "T-Rex"... or at least I think that's what it'll be.
Q12: Can the Sex Pistols only be used with the gun that Mista has?
A: Any gun that has been fired by Mista is OK! Also, Mista is able to always hit his target with one shot, and so he doesn't need machine guns and such.
Q13: Wasn't it a rule that there's only one stand per person? There's a few that have appeared since part 4 that are a number of stands such as Harvest and Sex Pistols...
A: No, these are still just one ability, and so they're counted as one stand.
Misc. part
Q14: "JOJO" has a lot of animals(a turtle, frogs, snakes, mice, spiders and such) that appear, but how do you pick what living creatures will appear?
A: For the most part I choose animals that "Look like they're not very intelligent and seem like they're not thinking of anything."
Q15: Do they really air "Captain Tsubasa" in Italy?
A: They do! At the very least I was it being aired 2~3 years back in Italy!!
Side comment: Tsubasa playing in the turtle! Of course this isn't in Japan, it's in Italy.
Q16: If you could pick one stand to have Araki-sensei, what would you pick?
A: Hmmm, maybe Harvest because I want money... No, I want Heaven's Door instead! I'm not very good with research interviews...
Q17: What's the meaning of the "Romance horror! The crimson secret legend!"?
A: It was something the first editor added, and there's no deep meaning to it. I actually feel like we can remove it after all this time...
The road leads on to a new adventure!!
[12]
フレッシュ対談
荒木飛呂彦vs.酒見賢一
漫画も小説もプロレス流に描こうじゃないか
「後宮小説」「墨攻」等、新鮮な息吹あふれる作品を次々に発表する酒見氏と、
『週刊少年ジャンプ』誌に「ジョジョの奇妙な冒険」を連載中の荒木氏、
小説界と漫画界の気鋭が<物語>の魅力を熱論。
ふたりに相通ずるココロは・・・・・・常に全力投球！
●中国のことは全然知らない
荒木 恥ずかしながら酒見さんの作品は『墨攻』しか読んでいないんですけど、なにか私と共通点があるような気がするんです。感情のおもむくままに書きつづっていく人というのは、最初と最後であまり関係なかったりしますけど、酒見さんのは理論的に物事が進んでいきますよね。そういうところが似ているかなと。
酒見 論理的に書いてるつもりはないですけど、いわゆる歴史について書くわけだから、資料はちゃんと集めなきゃいけないということで。でも、緻密な計算なんてないんですよ、実は。
荒木 やはり、昔から中国のことを調べていたんですか。
酒見 いや、中国のことは全然知らないんです。つくって書いているから、ちょっと恥ずかしい。
荒木 そうなんですか。でも、漫画にもそういう人がいっぱいいますよ。拳法にしたって、うそばかり書いてますから。
酒見 でも、知らないのに書くというのはちょっと怖いですね。識者の指摘とか、中国に一年なり住んだ会社員とかに、こんなことないよとか言われたら、もうそれでアウトじゃないですか。今のところはないですけど、今後、ありそうですね。
荒木 といっても、ある程度は創作する歴史みたいなものもあるわけだから。
酒見 僕はみんなつくり物ですよ。だけど、全然存在しないような武器を書いたりしてはいけないし、実在の国を勝手に滅ぼしてもよくないし。その程度の制約があるだけですよ。
荒木 でも、歴史上の人物を出すときは、もういつ死んだのかわかっていますよね。そういう場合は、ちゃんとそこで死ななきゃいけない。
酒見 大丈夫、『墨攻』には歴史上の人物はほとんど出てこないから。
荒木 そうなんですか。いや、僕はてっきり漢字が出てくるともう、実際にいた人かと。
酒見 要するに、映画をつくるときに荒れ地を見つけて、そこにセットをつくってという感じなんです。城も自分で考えてつくったものですし。
荒木 ビッグコミックで漫画になっていますけど、あれは酒見さんの想像通りの絵になっているんですか。
酒見 というより、僕はあの頃の服装も全然知らないから、ああ、こんな服着ているのかとかね。
荒木 そうなんですか。(笑)
酒見 貴族の服なんかはわかるんですね、ちゃんと絵が残っているから。でも、庶民がどんな服を着ていたとか、何を食べていたかなんていうのは、全然わからないわけですよ。城にしても、あの頃の城壁は残っていないですから、難しい問題をいっぱいはらんでいるんでしょうね。
荒木 遺跡みたいのはあまりないんですか。
酒見 いっぱいあるんですけど、さすがにニ五〇〇年前となるとちょっと難しい。エジプトとかギリシャは石でつくってあるからちゃんと残っているけど、中国のは叩けば壊れるんですね。あれ、土を固めてつくっているらしいから。だから、そういう意味で、本当はあの小説はうそが書いてあるんですけど。
荒木 でも、全然うそだと思わなかったな。
酒見 だから、どうも中国物のエキスパー卜だと見られてしまいがちで。僕は嫌だ嫌だと言っているんですけど。ＳＦも書いていますし、別に中国物にこだわって書いているわけじゃないんですよ。
●読者の想像をおもしろく裏切る
酒見 ジャンプで連載している『ジョジョの奇妙な冒険』でも格闘技が出てきますね。荒木さん自身、格闘技はけっこうやっているんですか。
荒木 全然やっていません。剣道をやっていたことはあるんですけど。
酒見 見る方も？
荒木 ないですね。テレビでやっている程度なら見るんですけど。それに、格闘技を書いているという感じはあまりないんです。酒見さんもそうだと思いますが、人間の駆け引きというんですか、その辺がおもしろいわけで。だから、プロレスとか、はっきり言って嫌いですね。
酒見 荒木さんはそうおっしゃるけど、実は、プロレスも同じなんですね。プロレスだと相手の外人なりなんなりの力を、十分引き出してからやっつけなきゃいけないというのがあるわけですよ。ようするに、未知の格闘家が襲来した場合、相手の持ち技を出さないうちに倒してはいけないわけです。向こうの強さを何回か観客およびレスラーに見せつけた後で倒すべきなんですね。漫画でも同じだと思うんです。はっきり言って、危険なやつだったらすぐ殺しちゃえばいいんだけど、やっぱり、相手の凄味を見せつけた後で一発逆転する。これは絶対に必要なことです。
荒木 一撃必殺だったら、ジャンプみたいな長い戦いはできない。(笑)
酒見 その辺で、前田日明がいた頃のＵＷＦなんかは悩むわけですね。弱いやっだったら一分で倒せるんですよ、本当はね。でも、相手のすごい技を見せた後で、さらに倒さなければいけない。それが八百長だと言われている現状があるから悩むわけです。
荒木 それで分裂したりするんですね。
酒見 そういうことですよ。この前でも、ボクシンクのトーレバー・バービツクとＵＷＦインターの高田延彦がやったとき、本当はバービックのパンチの凄さを存分に見せつけた上で倒すべきだったのに、高田はいきなりやっちゃったものだから、バービックは逃げちゃった。
荒木 それも戦いの方法だと。
酒見 バービックのパンチは三〇〇キロ以上のパンチというんだから、そんなもの受けたら終わりですから。その前にガンガンに蹴りまくった。格闘者としては正しいんですね。でも、プロレスでは間違いなんです。バービックの脅威を存分に見せつけてフラフラになってから逆転しなきゃいけないんです。だから、セメントはつまらない場合が多い。
荒木 セメントというと？
酒見 ガチンコとか言いますけど、真剣勝負のことです。プロレスとしてはちよっとまずいと思う。その意味では、漫画もそうだと思うんですよ。『ジョジョの奇妙な冒険』でも、肉を切らせて骨を断つという勝ち方が多いですよね。鏡の中でしか動けないやつとか、夢の中で襲ってくるスタンドとか、いろいろな相手が出てくるわけですけど、どうやって倒すのかと毎週楽しみです。
荒木 書く前に、一応、こんな感じかなというのはあるんですけど、書いていて、こうやって倒したらだめなんじゃないかとか思うんですね。
酒見 ふつう、漫画だとだいたい先が見えるんですけど、荒木さんのは先が見えない。どうやって倒すんだろうと。
荒木 そこが嫌いな人もいるんですけどね。
酒見 いや、これはすごいことですよ。読者の想像とか期待を裏切りつづけて、なおかつおもしろく裏切るというのが正しい姿と思いますね。
荒木 その意味で『墨攻』は感心しました。
酒見 僕も、そいつが凄いやつだというのを見せてから倒さなきゃいけないですから。
●毎週毎週、必死
荒木 さっき、酒見さんと似ていると言いましたけど、やっぱり心理戦なんですね。これがおもしろい。酒見さんの小説もみんなそうですね。そういうところが、ちょっと似ているなと思ったんです。
酒見 僕は、荒木さんのことは手塚賞をお取りになった『武装ポーカー』から知っているんです。あれに荒木さんの資質というのは出ていますね。ポーカーのトリックとか、やっぱりギャンブル好きでしょう。
荒木 まあ、大抵やります。私は、あまり負けないですよ。勝っているところでやめることができる男なんです。
酒見 外国でもやるんですか。
荒木 やりますね。エシプ卜でもグランカジノというのがあるんですが、一人で乗り込みましたから。
酒見 で、勝負は？
荒木 勝ちましたよ。お土産代は全部ギャンブルで取りましたから。
酒見 力ードゲームですか？
荒木 そうですね。あんまり時間がかかるのはだめですね。
酒見 やっぱり、ギャンブルでも機械相手じゃなくて、人間相手が好きでしよう。
荒木 そうですね。たとえばルーレットにしても、向こうのディーラーはプロフェッショナルだから、ちゃんと自分の好きな番号に入れられる腕があるんです。そういうプロを相手に、裏の裏の裏ぐらいから見ていくんですね。すごい心理戦なんですよ。
酒見 それでも、なかなか勝てない。
荒木 儲かるとやめないから。もうちょっとと思うんですね。でも、僕は勝っているところでやめられます。ギャンブルの楽しさは駆け引きですから。ぼくの漫画の面白さのひとつも心理戦にあると思っています。
酒見 その意味で、僕としては、実力者同士の戦いというのにすごく興味があるんです。でも、将棋とか碁の実力者というのは百手か二百手読みながら扇子をあおいでいるわけで、素人がその心理戦を描くというのはほとんど不可能ですよね。その点、相撲は一場所かけて実力者同士の戦いが見られる。だから人気があるわけですね。
荒木 プロレスはどうなんですか。
酒見 まあ、団体の思惑などがあって、卜ップ同士の戦いはまずないですけど、心理戦という面ではすごい。
荒木 奥深いんだなァ、プロレスは。
酒見 奥深すぎて、ほんと、八百長とか真剣とか言っている段階の人たちが可哀相だと僕は思いますよ。小説も漫画も一緒で、真剣漫画と八百長漫画があると思うんです。
荒木 そうですね。
酒見 相手の力を極限に引き出しておいてからかかっていく。相手の力を見せておかなきゃいけないわけですよ。荒木さんの漫画でもプロレス的に相手の技を読者に見せ切った上で、どうするんだろう、どうするんだろうと思わせておいて、ちゃんときっちり倒してしまうというのがいいんです。アイデアを出し惜しみしていない。
荒木 なにか、自分を試練に陥れるときがあるんですよ。最初はどうやって倒すかわからないまま、とにかく強くしちゃって追い込むんですね。
酒見 僕がそれをやると、助け方がわからなくなっちゃうので、あまりやらないんです。あまりに不利な状況で戦うというのは、やっぱり。その点、荒木さんはちゃんときっちり倒してしまう。そこがいいんですよ。つぎからつぎへとアイデアを出し惜しみしない。『ジョジョの奇妙な冒険』でも、もう十何人も倒してますけどみんなすごかった。
荒木 スタンドだけで三十通り近く考えているんですね。やっぱり、漫画ではその週のお楽しみがきちんとないとだめですから。どうしても話というのは山あり谷ありで流れていくけど、谷のところがずっと続いてしまうような話だと、ストーリーとしては必然性があっても、その週としてはおもしろくないですから。
酒見 その意味で、荒木さんのアイデア構成というのはすごいですね。アイデアのひとつに「波紋」がありますね。
荒木 肉体の限界みたいなものを追求して考えたことがあるんですよ。どこまで変身できるかとか。そしたら、赤外線で写したらオーラが写っていたとかね、科学的に「気」の研究がされているわけです。あと、宇宙からエネルギーが来ているとか、いろいろ不思議なことがある。こういうのは全部、ひとつ共通している何かがあるんじゃないかとか。そんなふうに発想していくんです。それで、読者にわかりやすいように、元気の「気」とか「波紋」だとか名前をつけるんですね。
酒見 「スタンド」もそうですか。
荒木 守護霊じゃちょっとあれだなあとか。それで、とにかく、枕元に立つからス夕ンドと名付けたんですね。でも、そろそろアィデアも使い切ったという。
酒見 いや、アイデアを先延ばしとかやっちゃだめだと思いますね。
荒木 ジャンプでそれをやったら生き残れない。毎週、その週の見せ場をつくらなきゃいけないわけですから。みんな、来週のことしかわからない。
酒見 小説よりも漫画の方の完成度が高いというのもそこに理由があるんでしょうね。
荒木 まあ、毎週毎週、必死であることは間違いありませんけど。
●ストーリーを追うだけなら簡単
酒見 漫画でいいのは、キャラク夕ーを立てるというのが一番だということですよ。持ち技とか個性をがんがん描いて、キャラク夕ーを立てられる。
荒木 確かに、キャラク夕ーが立たなければ、漫画は成立しません。読者にどうアピールするのか、毎週あたまを悩ますところです。キャラクターの魅力をひきだすために、どんなエピソードを描くのか、それが一番問題なんです。
酒見 小説は違うんですよ。キャラク夕ーを立てるより人間を書けというんです。
荒木 同じことじゃないんですか。
酒見 違うようです。要するに、突拍子もない人間を書いてはいけないんですよ、人間を書けといわれた場合。僕から見れば、ふざけるなということですけど、何か小説界というのはそういう仕組みになっているみたいでね。僕の世代になると、もうそんなのは関係なくて、はっきり言って、荒木さんのほうが上だと思っているんです。
荒木 そうでしょうかね。ただ、言えることは、漫画の世界ではつじつまをあわせただけのストーリーは通用しない。ストーリ—を追うだけなら簡単なんです。でも、キャラク夕ーにとって必要なエピソードを入れて、それでなおかつ、つじつまを合わせるとなると、これは難しい。毎週、作品があがると、頭の中はカラッポですね。
酒見 小説家のなかには、アイデアを出し惜しみして、このアイデアはこの短編にとっておこうとか、そういうケチくさい人がいるんですよ。僕は、今考えていることはすべて書くという方針だから、書き終わるとゼロになっちゃうんです。で、うまく浮かんでくるのをまた待っていなきゃならない。でも、そういうものなんじゃないですかね。要するに、推理小説だと一つの短編に一つのアイデアとか、プロなら当り前かもしれないけど、あざといことを考えたりする人が多いんですね。そんなことをせずに、三つ思いついたら三つ入れればいいじゃないかと、僕は思うんです。だから、まだ固まっていないんです。
荒木 僕も同じですよ。固まっていない。
酒見 僕はまだ二年ちょいですから。ポッと出ですね、まだ。
荒木 すごいですよ。『墨攻』を読んで、久しぶりに小説をおもしろいと思いましたもん。僕、思うんですけど、酒見さんの作品はイメージがはっきりしているから、漫画とか映画に向いているんじゃないですか。
酒見 絵にしやすいとは言われますね。でも『敦煌』ぐらいのお金をかけないと映画にならないでしょう。
荒木 『墨攻』を映画化したら『七人の侍』に匹敵するんじゃないかという感じがしましたけど。
酒見 僕は全然念頭になかったけど、よくそう言われますね。
荒木 かなり太い感じがあるし、ドーンという感じがあるし。元気な頃の黒澤明監督に撮ってもらいたいですね。
酒見 黒澤明監督にしても、同じ手法に絶対安住しませんよね。同じ映画は全然つくらない。そういう点が大好きですね。あのお年で、まだ新しいことをしたいのかというような、凄まじい人間だと思いますね。
荒木 日本の映画であれだけの映画作家というのは、その後、いませんよ。
酒見 もっとも、最近のはつまらない。でも、黒澤監督は、エン夕ーテイメントがわかった上で、ああいうわけのわからん実験的なこともやっているということで許せるわけです。若手のときから実験的なことばかりやって、妙に変な評価があるというのはちょっと気に入らないです。(笑)
荒木 エンターテイメントをしっかり押さえた上で、変なことをやってくれと言いたいですね。
[13]
第3部の小説が掲載された「ジャンプノベル」（1993年4月1日号）での対談。
noveloken_00
この号はジョジョ特集号で、小説以外にも折込ポスターや、ジョースター家四代の歴史（年表）、空条承太郎大激闘MAP（第三部冒険地図）等が載っていました。その辺の紹介についてはまた別の機会に。
お相手は音石・・・ではなく大槻ケンヂ氏です。
（※時期的には音石明が登場する直前）
オーケン＆飛呂彦の奇妙な世界
THE SHOCKING BIZARRE TALK【大槻ケンヂVS荒木飛呂彦】
仄かに広がる燭台の灯の中、二人の特異な才能を持つ者が出会った――。
一人は荒木飛呂彦、そしてもう一人は大槻ケンヂ。ショッキング・ビザール・トークが今始まる・・・。
ホラーっていうのは知性に訴える部分とハートに訴える部分と両方あるから僕、好きなんです。
オカルトやホラー、例えば幽霊なんかでも僕、信じてないんですよ。でも、好きでしょうがない。
大槻 実は僕は「ジョジョ」を読んで一番思った事はあれなんですよ。何かウオ～ッとやる気になるなという。俺もやらねば～。何かやらねば～みたいな。僕はミュージシャンというか、バンドをやっているんですけども、実は本も書いているんです。で、ある雑誌に書くんで、集中しなくちゃならんと思って、4日間位マンションにこもって執筆してたんですけど、もう～・・・！僕ね、バンドをやったり、映画に出たり、テレビに出たりとか色々やっているんですけど、バンドが一番楽。もう「物語」を作るというのは辛いですね。
荒木 でもね、その壁なんですよ。辛い、っていう壁を越えると楽しいんですよね。
大槻 それでその時にちょうど「ジョジョ」を読みまして、う～むと。
荒木 でもね、私もほんと、曲からとかいっぱいヒントを得たりしますよ。
大槻 僕思ったんですけど、ディオって言うのはロニー・ジェイムス・ディオで、ジョジョは『ゲットバック』に出てくるジョジョですよね。
荒木 そうです。いっぱいいますよ、もう。何かね、ロックとこういうホラー的なものっていうのは、子供の時からビビッと来まして。僕は70年代位から聞き始めたんですけど。昔はジャケットってその曲のアーティストを撮ってたんですよね。ところが、70年代に入ってから急に悪魔的なものをジャケットに押し出すんですよ。マーク・ボランとか、キング・クリムゾンとかね。タイトルも「地獄のハイウェイ」とか「悪魔の頭脳選択」とか、そういうのがあって、何でか知らないけど、本能的にバシバシッってきちゃって。音楽よりもジャケットで買ったと言う方がいいんじゃないかという。
大槻 僕もそうですね。ジャケットで買ってました。
荒木 ワルの魅力というか、悪魔の魅力みたいなね。そういうのが、僕、きましたね。
大槻 「ジョジョ」では、どっちに肩入れしてかいているっていうのはありますか？ やっぱ悪の側？
荒木 いや、一応全員に思い入れして書くんですけど、悪の方が楽しい時もありますね。何か自分が変態みたいに思われると困るんですけども、異常性とかを追求したりするんですよ、殺人鬼とか。
大槻 ああ。前の方に切り裂きジャックも出ていますよね。
荒木 ええ、出てきましたけど・・・。もうちょっと現代サイコホラー的な、ああいう異常心理を書きたいんですよ。
大槻 そういえば、去年、これは僕はきたな～って言う凄い事件が、ありまして・・・。今時、祈祷師が、悪霊がついたとかいう人をお払いだとか言って、ポカポカ叩いて、殺しちゃった事件なんですよ。
荒木 知ってます。きてますよね。
大槻 こういうのが僕、好きなんですよね。幽霊とかオカルトとか、そういうものを僕、信じていないんですよ。もうほとんど信じていないんだけど好きでしょうがない。
荒木 一応、「ジョジョ」なんかではオカルトどっぷりではなく、境目みたいな所にいるように心がけてて、完璧にあっちの世界にはいかないようにしてるんですけどね。たとえば、あのドアの向こうに誰がいるのかなとか、そういう怖さを追求するような所ですよ。
大槻 あのドアの後ろですか？
荒木 そう。窓からカーテンがチラッと動いたりすると怖いじゃないですか、ああいう感じですね。
大槻 いかりや長介がいる。（笑）
たとえば、僕がそこに何があるんだと思ってバーンと開けたら、長さんがいて「ウオ～」とか。（一同大笑）
荒木 でも、そういう意外性って、「物語」を作る上で必要ですよね。
「物語」は行きあたりばったりに考えてます。描く感じはライブ的とか日記的なんですよ。
乗ってきたらあの「無駄無駄無駄」とか喋りながら書いてません？
大槻 僕は宇宙人とか信じていなかったんですが、ある時、南山宏先生の本を読んでガ～ン、ときましてね。それ以来、僕、UFOオタクなんですよ。
荒木 あの写真ビックリしたなあ。火星表面のピラミッドの写真。
大槻 ああ、あれね。でも、あれ、笑っちゃいますよ。
荒木 トリックなんですか？
大槻 トリックというか、心霊写真といっしょで、何かこうクニャクニャした岩がただ顔に見えるっていうのがあるじゃないですか。Kさんていう自称科学ジャーナリストがいるんですけど、その人が、実は月はUFOの秘密基地だったと言って、月の写真をいっぱい出して、クレーターとかの上から字をなぞって、ここにUFOが何機置いてあるとか、ここに秘密基地があるとか、絵にかくんです。そういわれりゃそう見えなくもないけど、岩の写真とか、遠くからのしかもよくわかんない写真で、ここに人の顔があるかなあと思えばそう思えちゃうじゃないですか。そういう感じですよ、あれって。
荒木 やばいですよね。
大槻 そういうパラノイア的なというか、集中しまくっちゃって、その世界に完全に入っちゃって、何かもう逸脱しちゃってると言うのかな、そういう人っているじゃないですか。特に作家の方って。だから、実は僕はお会いするまでは荒木さんもそういう方だったらどうしようかと、ちょっと怖かったんですけども。
荒木 ご期待に添えませんで。（笑）
大槻 いえいえ。いやあ、安心しました。何か、いきなり「けさもディオが来てね」とか言い出されたりしたらどうしようかと。でも、あるじゃないですか。例えば、前にアニメ化もされた『幻○○○』を書かれたHさん。あの方もどんどん、うお～っていっちゃう人で、すごいんですよ。
荒木 実際の人がですか。
大槻 Hさんは「ウ○○ガイ」って作品を書いてらっしゃって、僕も大好きなんですけど、その作品の主人公がどこかで実在するような気がずっとしてたんだそうですよ。で、何とある日、家にその主人公だと名乗る人間が来ちゃったんですって。とても犬○○とは思えない普通のおじさんだったらしいんですけど。それでHさんは、最初はこいつはただのパラノイアだろうと思って、でも怖いから話してたんですって・・・。でも、Hさんは話してるうちにこいつは本物だと思っちゃったんですね。それで恐るべき事に、ある雑誌で編集者立会いの下、対談してるんです。（笑）
荒木 じゃ、今まではその・・・テレパシーみたいなものをその人から受けて書いていたと。
大槻 そう。それで僕、その話をUFO研究家の知人に話したんですよ。そしたら、そのSさんていう方が、「いや、僕も実はHさんのブレーンとして超能力とかの資料集めをしていたんだよ」とか言い出しまして、「だから、僕もその犬○○さんに会いましたよ。見て下さい。サインをもらったんですよ」と。（笑）見せてもらったら確かに『犬○○』とサインに書いてあるんですよ。どうします？ ある日荒木さんのお宅にジョジョが訪ねてきたら！
荒木 今の話、すごいリアリティがありますね。
大槻 荒木さん、それはあともうちょっとですよ。ジョジョが訪ねてくるまで。
荒木 でも、犬○○は僕も好きだから、実際にいるような感じはしますよね。
大槻 そういうふうになってきちゃうんでしょうね。あと、凄いのが・・・。
[ここからは余りにも過激なため、掲載できません。あしからず。]
大槻 でも、僕も何年か「物語」を作って数年後に終わらせた時に主人公が訪ねてきたとか言う人になってるかも知れないですね。
荒木 でも、私の所にも、どうして波紋って知ってるんですかと言う人が来ますよ。私がやっているんだって。
大槻 ほ～ら。あと数年後、ジョジョが訪ねてきますよ。
荒木 その時は紹介しますよ。
大槻 「ジョジョ」はアニメ化というのは？
荒木 今やってます。
大槻 もう始まってるんですか？
荒木 ビデオです。けど、このシナリオの出来がいいんですよ。何か僕自身が書いた訳じゃないんだけど、自分が書いたような・・・。
大槻 あ、それは見てみよう。
荒木 面白いですよ。ガンガン来る話になってて。
大槻 声の印象とかはどうですか？
荒木 そういうのは全然気にしないです。男が女の声してたらちょっとあれですけど。
大槻 それはまずいですよね。
荒木 あと、ジョジョが「ルパン三世」の声してるとか、「サザエさん」の声してるとか。
大槻 でも、それ、いいなあ。すごくいいなあ。ディオがマスオさんのあの声で「無駄無駄無駄ーッ」とか。
荒木 「ドラえもん」の声とか・・・。
大槻 でも、そういう意外なキャスティングというのも・・・。
荒木 いいけど、それはカルト作品になっちゃうよ。
大槻 例えば「サザエさん」で波平の声が「ルパン三世」の声だったりする訳ですよ。それは見てみたいなあ。
荒木 あとものまねの人にやってもらうとかもいいですね。
大槻 あっ、すごい似てる人がいるんですよ。広川太一郎のまねをする人で。ほんと、例えば、ルパンの声が広川太一郎だったりしたら。それこそがまさに日常の中の異常ですよ。何よりも。例えば、ある日テレビをつけたら、ルパン三世の声が全然違う！
荒木 いいですねぇ。
大槻 星一徹の声だったりしたら気絶しますよ、一億人がテレビの前で。
荒木 電話が殺到するでしょうねぇ。
大槻 サザエさんの大山のぶ代も見たいな。僕もいつかそういう「物語」を書きたいなあと思っているんですけどね。
荒木 書けると思いますよ。
―では、最後にお二人から読者へのコメントを・・・。
大槻 4月に「UFOと恋人」というアルバムが出るんですよ。まあひとつよければ買っていただけたら・・・。そして僕は真剣に、あと十年二十年かかってもいいから「物語」を作りたいと。でもやっぱり小説か映画とかいう手段になるんだろうなあ。
荒木 そうですね。月並みですけど、頑張りますかな。「ジョジョ」もアニメの他にもファミコンや小説になってますけど、そのどれにも本家のマンガが負けないように書いていくつもりです。
―本日はどうもありがとうございました。
(渋谷『タントラ』にて)
荒木先生からのビザールトーク後記!!
「マンガ家にしては普通の人すネ」とそーいーあんただってロッカーのくせにまじめな人のくせに
対談は一種の闘いだなと思った
読者プレゼントはイラスト入りサイン色紙！
[14]
新感覚のロードゲームって感じだね！
本を読み返しているような雰囲気でした
最初、取説読まないで始めちゃったんで、操作がわかんなくて、戸惑いがありましたね。（笑）精神レベルがあるとか、セリフで戦うのがあるんだ、というのはあとでわかりました。
いろいろわかってきたら、今度は自分で作戦をたてられるようになってくるんですよ。覚えてくるとおもしろいですよ。知的な感じがするんですよね。
作った人が原作をかなり読み込んでいるみたいですね。僕が、あ、忘れてたってセリフがけっこう出てきたりして。（笑）ゲームをやりながら、本を読み返しているような感じがありましたねー。
承太郎や花京院が「オラオラオラ！」って攻撃するときに、最後の一発がアップで来るのがいいんですよ。（笑）拳だけ。あれは、やっつけた感じがしますね。
花京院のエメラルドスプラッシュのグラフィックはきれいですよ。フワーッと出てくるやつ。これが出ると嬉しいんですよね。その場面だけ、もうちょっと画面を大きくしてほしいなと思ったりして。ドーンと画面の上半分使えませんかねー。（笑）
この夏に発売予定の『ジョジョ』のビデオアニメをただいま監修中！とても出来がいいので、ぜひ見て下さいね！
荒木先生の仕事場は、世田谷区の住宅街にある高級マンション！
「敵にセリフで攻撃するとき”言葉を無視した”って出るのがおかしかったですね。（笑）
「キャラクターがそっくりですよね。主人公だけじゃなく、せこいキャラクターまでが似ていてびっくりしたな」
●お気に入りスタンド使い
（味方）空条承太郎 星の白金 （敵）いちおう全部
●好きな台詞
自分で書いたものですから、もちらん全部ですね（笑）
●一言コメント
ポルナレフの登場シーンは笑えました。これからゲームを始める人は注目！
体験レポートは荒木先生の他に、OVAの監督である北久保弘之、ゲームプロデューサーの林広幸、あと何故かボンビーこと榎本39歳のありました。
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インタビュー記事⑥-ユリイカ 97年4月号-
リアル脱出ゲームにハマッて以来放置していたブログをきまぐれで更新。
気づいたら２０万アクセス超えてました。
ユリイカ1997年4月号の「特集 J-コミック'97 マンガ家が語るマンガの現在」より。
この企画では、荒木先生の他に楳図かずお、吉田戦車、伊藤潤二、安野モヨコら15人の漫画家のインタビュー・対談が掲載されています。
荒木先生のインタビュアーは精神科医の斎藤環氏。
進化する『ジョジョ』
―― 私は本業は精神科医なんですが、精神病理的な視点から語りうる漫画は、『エヴァンゲリオン』や吉田戦車などを筆頭に近年たいへん多いのです。これに対して荒木さんの作品は一種「過剰な健康さ」が特徴と言えるのではないか。ふつう健全なコミックというのは、人畜無害のつまらないものと相場が決まっているのに、荒木さんのものは健全性と個人的な表現衝動が他に例を見ないバランスを維持しているように思います。今回は荒木ファンの一人として、そのあたりの謎に迫りたいと考えています。まあそれは後のお楽しみということで、まずはデビュー当時のお話をお聞かせください。
荒木 出身は仙台です。二〇歳の頃にデビューしました。『魔少年ビーティー』という連載を仙台で描いていて、次の『バオー来訪者』の時、一九八四年のロスアンゼルスオリンピックの時に上京しました。ジャンプの『ジョジョの奇妙な冒険』（以下『ジョジョ』）は一九八七年から連載がはじまったんです。
―― デビューされて一六年、ことしは『ジョジョ』一〇周年ということになります。代表作である『ジョジョ』サーガは単一の作品というよりは、いろんなものを詰め込むための物語装置というか、世代ごとに受け継がれて別の作品になってゆきますね。現在の第五部に至っては、シリーズで共通する登場人物は広瀬康一くらいですし。
荒木 そうですね。読者が気に入らなければ、いつでもやめなければいけないという宿命がありまして。それでも、三部くらいまではある程度テーマみたいなものがあって、現代まで来ようと。主人公も、それはあまりなかったことなんですが、変えてゆこうと。そういうことをおぼろげには考えていたんですよね。
―― 物語が「ジョジョ」という血筋＝固有名の連鎖で繋がっていく形式は、非常に新鮮でした。第五部の主人公「ジョルノ・ジョバァーナ」が、「ジョジョ」一族の宿敵「ディオ」の息子であるという設定のように、血筋の流れの中で、敵味方が渾然としてますね。
荒木 人間というのは良い人でも悪い人でも認め、賛美しよう、読者に元気を与えよう、そういうテーマから始まっているんです。そうすると血とか、生き方とかが重要になってくる。主人公を描く時に必ず、親の代とか、どういう境遇で育ってきてこの主人公が今あるかたちで存在しているのかということを確立し、固めていくんですよ。そういうところからやっていこうと思ったんです。
―― 最初の設定としてはだいたい三代目まで、つまり「空条承太郎」までですか。
荒木 あの辺は結構ストーリーの進行を急いでいるんですよね。三部までいくことはもうわかっているから。だけど、三部は最後だったし、これで終わりなのかなみたいな感じでやっていたんですけれど・・・・・・。描くことがガンガン出てくるというか・・・・・・。
―― 荒木さんにはあんまりスランプってないんじゃないですか。
荒木 人によって違うと思いますが、僕は割合に波が短いんですね。
―― 漫画家というと締め切り前にドリンク剤をガンガン飲んで徹夜して、みたいなイメージがあるんですけれど、荒木さんは割とクールに昼間に仕事時間を決めて、淡々と職人的にこなしてる感じがします。
荒木 するどいですね。その通りです。
―― 以前インタヴューで話されてますよね（JoJo6251「荒木飛呂彦の世界」所収）。日曜日に構想を練って、月火水とかけて描いて金土が取材。それが一〇年続いているわけで、なおかつマンネリにならないというのがすごく不思議なんです。いまだに絵柄まで進化し続けるということが、どうして可能なんでしょうか？
荒木 多分、反省じゃないでしょうか。読み返した時にちょっと違うなとか、他の作家さんの方がいいなぁとか。そうすると、やはりその点をちょっと変えていこうかと思っている。特に意図はしてないんですが。
―― 荒木さんでも他の作家の絵柄がいいとか、羨ましいとかあるんですか？
荒木 ありますね。ですが、クセがあったりして、なかなか自分の思う通りにはいかないんですけれど。
―― クセというか個性が強烈ですよね。面白いのは荒木さんの亜流ってあんまり見かけませんよね。たとえばひところ大友克洋の亜流っていっぱい出ましたけれども、荒木流って見たことない。
荒木 変化するから真似のしようがないかもしれないですね。
―― 絵柄だけ真似てもしょうがないし、セリフ回しや、めまぐるしい視点の切り替え、極端な構図やパースなどの総合されたものが荒木流ですから。亜流が出てこないというのは、そういう技術的な問題でもあるでしょうね。
荒木 絵もそうですが、ストーリー展開でも登場人物の視点が、私は自分ではずいぶん切り替わるなぁと思っているんです。そういう描き方じゃないとストーリーが進行しないというのもあるし。多分一回一九ページという制約のせいで、目まぐるしくならざるを得ない時はあるかもしれないですね。
―― それと時間の流れが独特ですよね。単線的には流れて行かない。手品的なトリックを多用されていて、時間が後戻りして実はこんなことをしていた、とか。まあ「スタンド」も実際に時を止めたり、戻したりできるわけだし。
荒木 一秒のことを綿密に描いたりするんです。登場人物が落ちていく間のことを、延々と描いて、落ちている間にここまで考えるか（笑）みたいな。
―― 第四部ラストの「吉良吉影」が死ぬところは、時間にして十五分くらいの出来事を、ほぼ単行本一冊を使って描いていますもんね。このあたりは漫画ならではの時間性ですね。
荒木さんの作品は、理詰めで明快な娯楽性といいますか、それこそＳＦ的な意味で常に説明がきちんと出来ているじゃないですか。「スタンド」にしてもトリックにしても原理がきちっとしていないと気がすまないみたいな・・・・・・。
荒木 それはあります。幽霊や超常現象にしても、目に見えないものを描いていく場合、それが科学的であろうが漫画的であろうが、ちゃんとした原理がないと満足出来ない。それで「スタンド」みたいなものが生まれたんですよね。
―― あれはすごく斬新な感じがしましたね。あれに似たアイデアって見たことないんですけれど、なにかヒントはあったんですか？
荒木 いえ、それも「願い」から出て来たことですから。つまり超能力というのはただ念じたらバーンって割れる感じを、まぁ、何か出てきて叩けば読者はわかりやすいなと。ただそれだけなんですけれど。『うしろの百太郎』を読んで、守護霊なんかが出てきても、ただ出てくるだけで何もしない（笑）。パンチでも繰り出して、悪霊をやっつけてくれればいいのにと思っていて、そういう発想で出て来たことだと思うんですね。
―― 八〇年代初頭には、一方で大友克洋ブームがあって『童夢』のような、それこそ目に見えない超常現象をみんな描きたがる傾向があったじゃないですか。あれに対するアンチというものを多少意識されたところはあるんですか？
荒木 そうですね。超能力のわかりにくさというのをなんとかしてやろうというのはありましたね。でも大友先生の空間の描き方にはすごい勉強させていただきましたよ。コップの割れ方とかね。よく見て描いていくとちゃんとわかるんですよ、理論的に描いていて。ちゃんとこう、パズルみたいに破片をきっちり描くんですよね。水の散り方も、写真に撮ったりしてスローモーションを見て描いているんじゃないかと思うような、そういうのがすごい緻密で。好きで読んでいましたが、ただ超能力の部分がちょっとわからない、納得いかないんですね。じゃあ、わしらは叩きに行くんだ！みたいなね。そのへんが願いとして出てきたということなんだと思うんですね。
―― 独特のセリフ回しというのはいろいろなところで指摘されていると思うんですけど、翻訳調というか、翻訳ものを読んでるような感じを持つことがあるんですが、それは意図してやっておられるんですか。
荒木 いや、本を読んだ影響が残っているんじゃないかと思うんです。そういうふうに喋っている時もありますね。なりきっちゃってね（笑）。
―― 海外の小説はやっぱりキングがいちばんお好きなんですか？
荒木 そうですね。他のサスペンス系の作家をあまり読んでいないだけかもしれないですけれど。
―― 擬音についてはどうでしょう。あの一部で有名になったキスシーンの背景音がありますね、「ズキュウゥーン」という（笑）。キメの場面では必ず「バーン」とか「ドドドド」とか、独特の効果音が出てきますが、あれも内面からほとばしってくるわけですか。
荒木 何かリズムみたいなもので「このシーンにちょっと欲しい」とか。映画の影響だと思いますよ、やっぱり。たとえば殺人鬼が後ろに立つと急に音楽が鳴るじゃないですか。「キュンキュンキュンキュン」とか、「ズンズンズンズン」とかさ（笑）。なんなんだろうね、あれは。あれが欲しいんですよ。
―― やはり映画的に展開しようというのはありますか？
荒木 ありますね。視点とか、カメラの目で想像しながら描いたりしますもん。カメラがモノに寄っていったりするのがちょっと恐いなとか。何の変哲もない水の入ったグラスでも、ゆっくりとカメラが寄っていくと、毒が入っているんじゃないかなと思うじゃないですか。もちろん漫画の画面という制約はありますけど。
―― 映画はかなりお好きのようですね。
荒木 だいたい話題作は観ていますね。監督ではクリント・イーストウッド、コッポラ、デ・パルマ、スピルバーグあたりが好きですね。リンチやキューブリックは、僕はちょっと駄目なんです。もちろんいいところはあるんですが、自分のものとして採り入れようという気にはならない。
―― キャラクターもですが、ともかくスタンドの造形が見事だと思うんですよ。ウルトラマンをデザインした成田享さんが書いてますが、化け物をきちんと描くのは難しくて、かなり技術のある作家でも、化け物だけは奇形やせいぜいキメラ的な造形になりがちなんです。 荒木さんの描く化け物は、デザイン的な整合性もさることながら、ちゃんと健康で自律した生命を持っていますね。だからぜんぜんグロテスクには感じられない。
荒木 グロテスクなものは、もしかしたら描けないかもしれない。まあ作品中でもあまり残酷なシーンは描いていないと思います。例え血まみれになるような場合でも、出血はあまりリアルじゃなくデザインするし。ただスタンドの造形にはそんなに苦労しないですね。民芸品や人形の使えそうな部分をちょっとずつ持ってきたりして。それにスタンドの能力を加味して考えます。
―― 「エコーズ（広瀬康一のスタンド）」なんかも無造作に出てきた感じですか？ちょっと工夫した感じもしますが。
荒木 「エコーズ」はちょっと考えたかもしれない。はじめて成長するタイプのキャラクターを試したので。スタンドも卵から孵って変化するという。
―― 広瀬康一は好きなキャラクターなんですよ。
荒木 まあ彼の運命いかんで再登場となるかもしれませんね。でも本当にあまり計算はしていないですね。一見計算しているように思われるみたいですが。ストーリーの計算も最初の頃はやっていたんですが、ある時ね、なんか日記みたいにして描いていてもいいんじゃないかなって、今日思ったことを綴っていこうかなという気になったことがあるんですよね。ただ、方向性をはっきりさせているんで。
―― 過去のキャラクターにはあまり思い入れはない？
荒木 考えもしませんね。別れた友達みたいな感じで、懐かしいなというだけで。次の週のことで頭がいっぱいで忘れるんですよ。この世界は振り返っている暇がないんじゃないかな。
―― 以前、寺沢武一さんが荒木さんのことを、最後までストーリーを練ってから描くタイプだと解説されていましたが。
荒木 いや、それはもうないです。もう来週のストーリーがわからないですから。『バオー』や『ジョジョ』の第一部の頃はそうでしたが、それをやっていると持たない。
ただキャラクターに対して明確なイメージがあれば、その人の「運命」で行くんです。人と同じで、動かざるを得ないというか。主人公の動機付けがはっきりしていれば、こういう気持ちだからこう行く、というのは必然的に決まってきます。
―― その辺がスランプのなさというものにつながるんでしょうかねぇ。
荒木 いや、スランプはありますよ（笑）。
―― ないと言い切ってしまうのも問題でしょうけれど、ほかの方との比較で。漫画家も絵が上達するにつれて、どんどんイラスト的な比重が高くなって、物語を動かせなくなってしまうというパターンもあると思うんですが、荒木さんの場合、全然それがないですね。絵柄の変化と物語の進行が相互に加速し合っている。このテンションで一〇年続いている漫画って他にありましたっけ？ 『ジャンプ』でも『こち亀』が二〇年で、『ドラゴンボール』が一〇年ぐらいでしたか。ただ『ドラゴンボール』ですらパターンの反復は避けられなかった。トーナメント方式で、どんどん強い敵が現われていく。荒木さんは、こういうトーナメント方式に対して、疑問を持っているように思うんですが。
荒木 バブル的だなと思うんですよ。あの後どうするのかなと不安になるというか、自分がそれをやれと言われる時は、えーっと思うんですよ。トーナメントは完全に否定しているところはありますからね。
―― 『ジョジョ』に関しては、どうもトーナメント式に誤解されている方がずいぶんいるみたいなんです。批評家までがちゃんと読まないで、あれはトーナメントだと断言したりするのは本当に残念です。物語が何部かに分かれているところや、あとスタンドの能力が一つしかないということで、強さよりも質で差別していますよね。こういう設定によって強敵のインフレーションを防ぐという意図はあったわけですか。
荒木 トーナメント方式は読者には受けるので、編集者がやっぱりやろうか、と言う時もあるんです。でもその時は「うーん。でもこの敵が終わったら、その時僕はどうすればいいんですか？」みたいなね。実は、第四部の杜王町の時に、これで終わりかな、と思ったことがあったんです。また違う漫画を描かなきゃいけないのかなぁと。ところが、編集部が「休みは駄目だよ」と言うから（笑）。それで仕方なく、無理やりキャラクターを作って始めましたが、でも描いているとキャラクターに情が移ってきて。
―― 広瀬康一がうまくバトンタッチをしたという感じで、読んでいるほうは何も違和感というか、本当に作為が感じられなかったですよ。
荒木 あそこは結構作ったなと自分では思っています。でもだんだんキャラクターに入っていくところから、そういう感じがなくなるのかな。
少年漫画の王道
―― 荒木さんはいろんな意味で、漫画の王道を行っている感じがしますね。
荒木 でも勘違いされて、マイナー系の人だなと思われているところもあるんです。自分では昔からある少年漫画の精神を受け継いでいるつもりなんですが。
―― それは本当にそうですね。要するに漫画の批評が荒木さんの作品について語る言葉を持っていない。私は今日、それを力説したくて来たようなものなんですけれど。これはあきらかに不当な過小評価だと思います。初期のころは「セリフや擬音が面白い」とか、そういう些細なところで持ち上げておいて、いまやマンネリとか言ってますけど、私はテンションはかえって高まっていると思います。実験性が目につかないせいでしょうかね。わかり易い実験をしないというか。いまのところ、正当な評価と思われるのは宅八郎の批評（『イカす！おたく天国』所収）だけですね（笑）。
荒木 読者が『ジャンプ』の読者ですから。そういうのに鍛えられているせいなのかもしれないですね。でも何かそれも過大評価じゃないかという（笑）。
―― いや、この王道を行きながら実験的であるというのはすごく稀有なことで、現在のあまりにも不当な評価を多少なりとも逆転させようという使命感を持って、今日は来たようなものです。
荒木さんの作品は生命賛歌といいますか、健全というのともちょっと違いますが、すごく健康的なんですよね。私は一方では吉田戦車の漫画について語ったりもしているんですが、あれはいろんな意味で病理的に語れるところがあって、逆に語り易いんですよ。ああいう漫画はどう思われます？
荒木 好きですね。ああいう人間の病的な部分をえぐり出す感じも面白いですよね。ああいう漫画を読んでアイデアが浮かんだりするけれども、僕の漫画のテーマの根本は、人間を賛美しようというところにあるんで、ちょっとそこに視点を移しちゃうだけなんですよね。ただ、僕の漫画も裏返せばああいう漫画になるとは思いますが。
前の編集者には、「もっと人間の悲しさを描こうよ」とかいうことも言われたんですよ。そうすると、うーん、描けないなという時があるんですよね。「わしの資質が違うかもしれん」とかね。そういう時はやっばり悩みます。描いてみたいと思うんですよね。
小説でいうとＳ・キングのホラーとか、ああいう”生まれてきた悲しさ”みたいなのもやっばり「人間賛歌」だと思うんですよ。だけど、それはちょっとなかなか行けない。だから、そこを中心に語ってしまうとへボな作家だなみたいな感じだと思うんですよね。あまりそこに焦点がいくとね。映画でいうと『セブン』のように地獄に突き落として終わるようなみたいな、あのへんは行けないと思いますね。どこかで救ってしまうんですよね、わしは。でもああいうのもいいんですよね。いいと思うんですよ。いずれは挑戦しようかなと、テーマがビシッと合った時にトライしてみたいとは思うんですが。
―― 第四部というのは少し流れが変わってサイコパスものというか、『羊たちの沈黙』とか『セブン』とか、あの辺のテイス
トがちょっとあるんですね。
荒木 そうですね。時代ですかね。『ジョジョ』の第三部あたりは神話的なストーリーの様相があったんですけれど、四部あたりで少し日常のものに移ってきたというので、主人公がそういうふうになったんですよね。
―― それは積極的に採り入れた感じですか。それとも日常を描こうとしたら、必然的にそうなったという感じですか？
荒木 そうですね。宮崎の事件とか、ああいう感じで。敵の象徴が何かなと考えた時に、ディオもいろんなものの象徴として描いているんですけれど、やはり日常の、隣に住んでいる人が何をしているかわからないというのがいちばん恐いなと思ったので。で、いまの第五部の敵は内部にいる、自分の上司が敵ということになります。これは自分を守ってくれるはずの政治家や警官が敵かもしれないという意識に重なりますね。
―― 第四部の「杜王町」は例外として、あまり世界が箱庭的にならないようにということは考えますか？オタク的な閉じた空間のなかで敵が出てくると、それこそトーナメントみたいになってしまうということで。
荒木 必要とあればそれもやらないことはないと思います。でも一週間で描いている時は、本当にここだけなんですよ。一秒のあいだだけ、この空間だけでどういう攻防があるんだろうなということを考えています。そういう感じですので描いてる時は狭いですよね。あとから見るとその世界はでかくなっていますけれど。
それと毎週アイデアは一個しか出さないというのがあって、ニ個出すと読者はわからなくなるというのがあるんですよ。描くことは一個だという漫画の描き方があるんです。編集者がそういうことを言うんですよね。アイデアが二個あると、編集者は「そんなに考える必要はない」「ニ個あると駄目だよ、読者はどっちを読んでいいのかわからないだろ」と。一個でいい。
一個を照れずに描き切ると。「こういう照れたようなコマは駄目だよ」とか、あるんですよ（笑）。あえてやるんだと勇気づけられますね。こっちがちょっと不安になってくるところを「大丈夫だから」とかね。そういう編集者の言葉は大きいですね。
―― 血筋の話ですから家族が出てくるわけですが、だいたい父親が死んでしまったりとか、ヨボヨボになっちゃったりしますよね。女性を守るためといっても、それは母親を守るため、助けるために闘う場合が多いようですが、この辺も一種の健全さとして受け取ってしまうんですけれど。
荒木 うーん。読者がこれはちょっと変だなと思うようなことは避けようとすると、どうしてもそうなってしまうというか。恋人を守るためだったら、ちょっと気高くないかなという・・・・・・。もうちょっと欲望の部分、自分の損得の感じが入っていたりするけれど、それがちゃんと愛になるまでいろいろ描かなけりゃいけないですよね。だけどお母さんとか肉親だったら何の動機もいらないと思うんです。女性を守ったりすると違う話になってしまうんですよ。なぜその女性を守らなければいけないのかの話を描かなければいけなくなってしまう。話がずれていってしまうんですね。まあ女の子があまり描けないというのもありますが。何度か試してはみたんですけどね。
闘いの漫画を描きたいのに、読者はそれまでに我慢しなければいけないわけですよ。熱心な読者は読んでくれるかもしれないですけれど、『ジャンプ』の読者は闘いが見たいのに、そんなところを延々と描かれていたんじゃ……。だったらお母さんにして、そこのところはパーンと流すというやり方というのはあると思うんですよね、打ち合わせの時にまどろっこしいやり方は却下したりとかね。だからパズル的な作り方の時もありますね。ここにこうはまるとか、それは駄目だなぁとか。ここでちょっとあいつを助けようかとか、そんなのはかったるくないですかとか。ジェームズ・キャメロンのようにゴーンと行かなきゃ駄目だという時があるんですよ。キャメロンは骨太に行くところが好きですね。余計なところはあまり描きませんよね。でも背後に物語がある。
―― 実写映画が撮れたらなと思うことはありますか？
荒木 自分で撮れたらなという希望はありませんが、映画というのは芸術としてすぐれた伝達方法なんだなと思う時はありますね。映画は認めて尊敬してます。でも漫画が映画みたいな芸術になるのかなというところは疑問があったりもしますけれども。アニメはあんまり眼中にないし。
―― 加藤幹郎という評論家が、寺沢さんとか荒木さんなどの漫画を総称して、マニエリスム、つまりきわめて高度な技術で絢爛たる引用をちりばめた漫画だと指摘していますが、それは意図的になさっていることなんですか？
荒木 そうならざるを得ないというところですね。
―― 引用はされるけれどパロディはあまりされませんよね。シリアスなタッチでもアニメ的なおちゃらけがないといいますか。
荒木 あの、多少馬鹿馬鹿しいと思っても、照れずにやるというのは基本なんですよ。ちょっと照れはあるんだけれど、そこを突き破っていくんですよ。そういうテクニックってあるんですよ。あえてやる！みたいな（笑）。決心がいるんですよね、あれはね。
―― やっばりおちゃらけてしまいたいという誘惑はあるんですか。
荒木 ははは。あるんですよ。描いていてちょっと、なんかやばいんじゃないかなと思うこともあるけれど、それを見抜かれると読者がしらけるから。でもあれもジャンプの伝統なんですよね。車田正美先生とか、なんでここまでノレるかなという、すごい人がいますからね。
―― あれは『ジャンプ』ならではという感じですよねぇ。
荒木 よく考えると、なんで宇宙に飛んでいくみたいなね（笑）。だけど、完全に読者の上をいってしまうから、ああーってなると思うんですよね。
―― ちなみに技の名前を叫ぶのは車田正美先生ですね。
荒木 ですね（笑）。
―― 車田先生はパンチシーンの構図はだいたいいつも一緒でしたけれど、荒木さんはその辺は描き分けておられますよね。
荒木 だんだん時代も進化してくるわけですからね。うん。だから僕の漫画はやはり伝統に則っていると思います。
―― 最近こいつはいいと注目しておられる漫画家の方はいますか？
荒木 うーん。いっばいいるけれども認められないなという部分もあったりとか。オタク系の漫画家というのは、ちょっと理解できないけれども、うまいとは言わないけれども、やっばり独特の魅力があるのかなと思うんですよ。みんな熱狂的にその絵がいいといって支持しているわけでしょう。だけど自分にはわからない部分もあったりして。なんでこうペラペラに描いていいのかなとかね。同じ顔ばっかりでいいのかなとか。
望月峯太郎さんは好きですね。『ドラゴンへッド』は読んでます。『バタアシ金魚』はよく判らなかったけど、『座敷女』のころからいいなと思い始めて。『ジャンプ』では、うすた京介『すごいよ！マサルさん』。あとあの『カイジ』の福本伸行さん（『ヤングマガジン』連載）。『カイジ』はわし好みじゃないですか、そんな感じしませんか。絵はちばてつやを記号にしたみたいな感じで、そんなにうまくないけど。あれはいいんですよ。去年燃えたのはあれですね。本屋に走っていったのは久々ですね。
―― 今日のお話を聞いてますます確信しました。やっばり我々がすごいと思っている部分を全部軽い気持ちで出しておられるというのがわかりましたので（笑）。これはもう天才性の証ということで。
荒木 天才じゃないですけどね（笑）。でもあまり重要じゃないと思うんですけどね。
―― 我々の見方も間違っているのかもしれませんけれど、でも他の漫画と違うところに目がいってしまうんです。意図して違わせてるのかなと思うと、そうでもないわけですよね。自然に出てくるもので。
荒木 それしか行けないですね。
―― そのノリで今後も一〇年、二〇年と。
荒木 わかりました。頑張らせていただきます。つらいですけど（笑）。
[16]
——それでは、何でも聞いて下さい。
エ「写真と同じ顔の人なんですね♡ お店に入ってきた時、すぐわかりました」
荒「ああ、そうですか（笑）」
——でもコミックスの写真は白黒でしょう？
荒「あれは白黒って決まってるんですよ。スーパー・コミックスの方はカラーなんですけど」
エ「生年月日などを…？」
荒「35年6月7日です。双子座です。B型です」
エ「マンガ家になったきっかけは？」
荒「80年の冬ぐらいに、ジャンプに持ちこんだんです。原稿を——『武装ポーカー』という、手塚賞準入選に入ったやつです」
——ああ、今回の特集に集まったハガキで、名前だけ知っているけど読んだことがなくて残念ってのが多かったですよ。
荒「西部劇です。異色の……」
ふ「今とずいぶん感じが違いますね」
荒「そうですね。ポーカーゲームみたいなのしてガンマンが戦うって話で……31枚でした。それでデビューしました。その後
は、短編を3本ぐらいのっけて、『魔少年ビーティー』に入りました」
——そのころのものは、じゃあ今は読めないわけですね。
荒「ああ、短編集は出ていません。もうあのへんのやつは、闇にほうむりたいんです（笑）」
一同「え〜っ!?」
エ「その前に、投稿とか同人誌は？」
荒「高校のころ、けっこう投稿してた」
ふ「どういった雑誌に？」
荒「やっぱりジャンプ。好きだったから……」
——そのころの少年ジャンプというと、どんな作品がありました？
荒「…『ドーベルマン刑事』とか…あと忘れた（笑）。マガジンだと『愛と誠』なんかね」
エ「影響を受けた人とかはいました？」
荒「梶原一騎さんの原作の」
一同「え〜っ（笑）え〜っ（笑）（笑）」
荒「え〜って…何で!?（笑）」
ふ「梶原一騎さんってマンガ描いてるんですか？」
——『愛と誠』の原作とかやってるでしょ。
ふ「あ、そうか」
小「え〜っ!?」
荒「えっ!? そんな世代なの〜っ!? 今、読んでもあれはおもしろい！」
——小見山さんも、何かありません？
小「『ビーティー』のトリックなんか、いつも自分でお考えになるんですか？」
荒「アレンジするのもあるし、自分で考えるのもあります」
——それではそろそろ、『バオー』のお話を……。ファンロードの読者に人気がある原因のひとつは、短い連載だったにもかかわらず、中途はんぱな打ち切りラストではなく、ジャンプの作品の中でも理想的な完結をむかえた作品であるかららしいんですが……。
荒「ああ、あれはラストだけは考えてたの。こういう終わり方にするんじゃないかなって……」
——終わりの方で、やっと“来訪者”って意味がわかるのも、いいですね。最初は、逃げてばかりなのになぜ“来訪者”なんだろうかと……。
荒「ボクもそう思った（笑）」
エ「あれ、続編とかは……？」
荒「作りたいですけどー……」
ふ「17歳のスミレちゃんが見たいで〜す♡ どういうイメージですか？」
荒「そうですね、あんまり活発じゃなくて女らしい人」
エ「スミレちゃんのモデルは？」
荒「現実には、いませんね」
ふ「理想のタイプとか……」
——そういえば、コミックスの2巻目の描きたしページのスミレは、ずいぶん感じが変わっていましたね。
荒「絵はね、なるべく変化させるようにこころがけてます。修行中と思ってますから」
ふ「絵の方で影響受けた方は？」
荒「白土三平……最初はね」
——『バオー』でもいましたね。爆弾投げた2人組なんて、爆弾の代わりに手裏剣にしたら忍者モノのノリですもんね。
荒「その通りです。（笑）『サスケ』とか好きでしたから」
エ「なぜ、スミレちゃんとかマユ毛が太いんですか？」
荒「太すぎますか？（笑）」
ふ「慣れるとかわいいんだけど、パッと初めて見た時は……」
エ「最初、飾りかと思った」
荒「60年代のメーキャップみたいのが好きなので、あのへんをちょこっとやってみた。（笑）ファッション・デザインの学校に
行っていたことがあるので」
ふ「ツリ目の人が好きだとか……」
荒「そう、ツリ目でね、くちびるはちょっと厚めがいいな。描いてはいませんけどね」
——ツリ目じゃないの、あのおばあちゃんぐらいですね。（笑）
小「バオーをどうして、寄生虫にしたんですか？」
ふ「あたしも聞きたかった！ 気持ち悪〜いの！（笑）」
荒「あのへん、ちょっと不評だったかも……（笑）」
——でも、ホラー映画では、軍の機密とかなんとかでそういうのって、よくあるんですよ。
荒「リアリティーがあると思ったし……変身する理由がちゃちいと、迫力の面で違ってくると思うんですよ。こいつなら変身しかねないぞと、思わせるためには……」
エ「読んだ時、『サイボーグ009』みたいな感じがした♡」
——女の子の感想ですねえ。たしかに、自分のからだに秘密の力があって組織に追われる孤独なヒーローっていうのは、『009』、『ウルフガイ』、『キマイラ』なんかも、みんな共通の悲劇的な魅力を持ってますからね。そうそう、ここで読者の質問をちょっと……。“バオー”をとじこめた時に、ネペンテス液なんて入れずに水を入れてしまえば、バオーは眠ってしまったんじゃないんですか？ というんですが……。
荒「それは、アシスタントからも指摘がありました。（笑）それはね、水を入れている間に、バオーだと扉をとかして脱出しちゃうわけ！」
一同「あっ、なるほどー！」
荒「霞の目は、ちゃんとそこまで考えていたわけ！」
——ボケてたんじゃなかったんですね。
ふ「生物とかはお好きだったんですか？得意科目だったとか……」
荒「そうかもしれません（笑）」
エ「じゃあ英語も？ あれだけいろんなことばが出てくるから……」
荒「英語は——（笑）、あれは不得意だから、わざとむずかしくしてる」
ふ「○○フェノメノンとかいろいろ出てくるから、『試験に役立つマンガ』とか（笑）」
荒「あれ書いたら絶対に落ちます！」
エ「子供のころは、どんな子でした？やっぱりマンガ家にあこがれていましたか？」
荒「あんまりあこがれてなかったね。けっこう外で遊んでて、年上のガキ大将の後ろとかチョコチョコついて歩いてた」
——そういえば、同じ宮城の学校の後輩の人からもハガキ来てましたよ。
荒「あっ、ボク、宮城出身です。仙台です」
——寒さに強いそうですよ。
荒「寒さ強いです。夏は——仙台に逃げて帰ります」
エ「マンガ家になろうと思ったのは、いつごろですか？」
荒「デザイン学校入ってからかなあ。高校卒業してからデザイン学校入って、職がないんで、えらいとこに入った〜っと思って、マンガ家になろうと思って持ちこみをやった……」
エ「じゃあ、努力の人なんですね」
荒「努力というよりは……泣きつきです。（笑）お願いしまーすって……」
一同（笑）
ふ「やさしかったですか、編集さんは？」
荒「恐いです！（笑）」
小「でもホントに思ったわ、私。どうしてこんなお坊っちゃまみたいな人がマンガ家になったんだろうって（笑）」
——そうですか？
小「ジャンプでよく、新年号なんかで表紙で先生方の顔が出るでしょ。あれ見て、あーって思って……」
——そうそう、荒木先生は、バレンタインのチョコを、大きな箱に2つだか3つだか、ファンからもらうそうですよ。
一同「わ〜っ、すごい〜！」
荒「どうも、ありがとうございます」
小「キャラクターじゃなくて先生あてに？ それはすごい！」
ふ「そういうチョコレートは、みんなどうしていますか？」
荒「全部、食べてます。返事もいくつか書いてます！」
——ああ、これもハガキでありましたけど、お正月にマンガ家やミュージシャンに年賀状を出したら、荒木先生からはお返事を、しかも早くもらえたって。
荒「（笑）ボクはマメです！」
——ファンは細かいとこ見てますね。
荒「週、1通か2通は返事を書いてんじゃないかな？」
——公認のファンクラブみたいなものはあるんですか？
荒「あります……あったかな？」
一同「ええ〜!?」
荒「いいよって、言ったかもしれないけど……」
ふ「『バオー』は、アニメ化の話とかないんですか？」
——う〜ん、ビデオアニメの話とかは耳にしますけど、はっきり決定したものはないですね。
荒「レコードの話は……」
——イメージ・レコードの話はあったんだけど、これは流れちゃいました。
荒「ありゃ残念でした」
エ「自分の作品のアニメ化なんてのは、見てみたいとか思いますか？」
荒「……見てみたいですね。うれしいとかいうのとはちょっと違うけど」
——声優さん、たいへんでしょうね（笑）。
ふ「実写版とかいうのは——はやりのスプラッタで……」
荒「ピキピキピキって（笑）」
ふ「でも気持ちわるそう（笑）」
小「そうしたら先生が主役だ！」
一同「あっ、似合いそ〜ッ！」
荒「やだよ（笑）」
——あっ、荒木先生は苦手なんですって。こう、バルバルってポーズとかとったりするの。
ふ「ポーズは、ほらJACとかスタントの人にやらせて、育朗の時だけ」
エ「ああいうの、海外で受けそう」
——台湾では『魔界訪客』ってコミックスになってますよ。
エ「そうじゃなくて、アメリカとか、もっとメジャーに……」
荒「ことばのギャップがなきゃいいんですけどね」
ふ「こういう英語は使わないとか言われたりして（笑）」
——それは恐い。よくアメリカとかの映画で変な日本語が使われるのといっしょですね。
荒「バオーとかビーティーってのも造ったことばですね。どーゆー名前にしようかと思って……発音で決めるんですね」
——じゃあ何かの略ではない？
荒「ぜんぜんない。ティーってのがいい響きするなあと思って、頭文字でいこうと思って——AT、BT、あっ、ビーティーでいこうと」
——それではそろそろおしまいですよ。早くジャンプで新連載が見れるように、みんなヨイショしましょーね！
一同「がんばって下さーい♡」
[17]
『ジョジョの奇妙な冒険』は勇気をくれる漫画
荒川
荒木先生の作品は『バオー来訪者』から読ませていただいています。もちろん『ジョジョの奇妙な冒険』(以下:『ジョジョ』)も第１部からずっと愛読していまして。今日はお会いできて光栄です。どうぞよろしくお願いします！
荒木
おお〜！ そんな昔から読んでくださっているとは、嬉しいですね。ありがとうございます！
荒川
小学生の頃、姉が「少年ジャンプ」を買っていまして。納屋に積んであったのを何気なく手に取ったのが、ちょうど『ジョジョ』第１話の掲載号だったんです。農機具などを入れておく、薄暗い部屋で夢中になって読みました。
荒木
それはムード満点だ(笑)。
荒川
怖さ倍増でしたね。もうハマらないわけがない！ という状況でした(笑)。当時は子供だったので、波紋法をマネしたり、「こんなスタンド欲しいー！」と騒いだり(笑)。そして今回お会いするにあたって、改めて「私にとっての『ジョジョ』の魅力とは」を考えてみたのですが、やはり勇気をくれるところではないかと。
荒木
『鋼の錬金術師』(以下：『鋼』)もそこが魅力ですよね。読んでいると、人間の根源について考えさせられます。錬金術のシステムを通じて、自然界や人間界の仕組みまで追求していく。「おお！」って思いました。
荒川
わぁ、ありがとうございます！ その、人間の根源を考える時「勇気や誇りって何だろう？」という部分は外せないと思うんです。そこへいくと『ジョジョ』の登場人物は敵も味方もみんな誇りをもって、懸命に生きている。「あっぱれ」だと思います。特にイギーは……あの、ガムをクチャクチャやってたイヌに泣かされるとは……！ あと、リサリサの逆さ煙草のシーンもグッとくるし、シュトロハイムのブレのなさもいいですね。本当、どのキャラも大好きです。
荒木
ははは(笑)。シュトロハイムはもう身体半分が機械鎧みたいなものだからね。『鋼』の世界にいても違和感ないですよ。僕は『鋼』ではアームストロングがいいですね。こういう、真面目でありつつ趣味に走る人は好きです。特にシグと一緒にムキッとポーズをとるシーンは楽しい。逆に、アルがボロボロになるシーンは辛いです。何かの拍子に血印が消えたら……と思うとハラハラしちゃって。
荒川
カバーしとけって話ですよね(笑)。
「エルリック」は危険!?‘70〜’80年代の少年漫画界
荒川
『ジョジョ』の魅力といえばもうひとつ、独特のセリフ回しがあると思います。「ジョジョの奇妙な百人一首」のＣＤを仕事場で流したりするんですけど、『ジョジョ』を読んだことが無いアシスタントさんまでなぜか暗唱できるという。
荒木
それはすごい(笑)。僕は「なぜ戦うのか」とか、動機や理由づけは意識してるんですが、このセリフを流行らせようとか、読者を泣かせようとか、その辺りはあまり考えていないんです。だから、そう言っていただけると嬉しいですね。
荒川
日常生活で、無意識のうちに『ジョジョ』のセリフが出ることがあるんですよ。たぶん荒木先生が思っていらっしゃる以上に、読者の血肉になっているんだと思います。それだけ強い言霊が宿った作品なんだなあと。
荒木
ただ、ホラー要素がある作品なので、あえて汚い言葉も使って……美しい部分ばかり描いてちゃダメって思いはありますね。「白と黒」「善と悪」「美と醜」といった対極的なものを頭に置きつつ描いているので、人間のゲスな部分も避けずに踏み込もう、と。
荒川
なるほど。
荒木
でもね、こうして認めてもらえたのは連載開始から10年くらい経ってからじゃないかなあ。当時は外国が舞台で、主人公も外国人という設定は難しいと言われていて。編集企画段階で落とされちゃうんです。うん、当時は僕も生意気だったんですかね。そういう少年漫画のルールやジンクスに挑戦したいという思いもありました。「ジャンプ」の基本原則である「友情・努力・勝利」さえ守っていれば、横文字でもいいじゃないかと。
荒川
しかも、物語の入り口はアステカですよね。
荒木
わかりにくすぎ(笑)！
荒川
いや〜、私のようなオカルト好きには、もうたまらないですけれども。
荒木
怪奇系の大河ドラマも、当時の漫画界ではヒットしないと言われていたんです。たまたま、こういう世界観が好きな編集者が後押しをしてくれて……『ジョジョ』を連載させてもらえたのは奇跡だと思いますね。だから『鋼』の「エルリック」というネーミングは、当時だったらかなりキケンでしたよ(笑)。
荒川
ははは、ボツだ(笑)。
荒木
その辺りはすんなり決まったんですか？
荒川
エニックス(現・スクウェア・エニックス)はゲーム会社なので、その点はスムーズだったと思います。むしろＲＰＧに慣れた読者を想定していましたから、ファンタジーの香りがするネーミングがいいのかなと。
荒木
そうなんですか。時代は変わったんだなあ。[18]
